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Old 06-14-2019, 12:07 PM   #1
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As speed increases, should lean angle decrease?

Simple question. As speed increases, should the lean angle decrease?
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:41 PM   #2
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
Simple question. As speed increases, should the lean angle decrease?
I think the opposite.
The faster more lean angle... If I understood the question right... I'm guessing when taken a turn...
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:37 PM   #4
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Through the same turn using the exact same line, the lean angle of the bike increases with speed. Now, your instruments that measure the lean angle could be off.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:41 PM   #5
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65 degree lean angle
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:07 PM   #6
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I agree with Bevo, lean angle increases (with respect to the vertical axis as zero) with more speed
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Old 06-14-2019, 03:47 PM   #7
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Old 06-14-2019, 04:03 PM   #8
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I knew I would be elaborating on this. So. Lest say a rider is taking corners at an average of 60-80 mph at an average of 45-52 degrees lean. My thought is that as speed increases, say 120-140, the same lean angle becomes more precarious as the suspension has to work harder to soak up more bumps and groves at a faster pace. So should a ride to reduce leaning as hard on faster turns ?
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Old 06-14-2019, 04:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
I knew I would be elaborating on this. So. Lest say a rider is taking corners at an average of 60-80 mph at an average of 45-52 degrees lean. My thought is that as speed increases, say 120-140, the same lean angle becomes more precarious as the suspension has to work harder to soak up more bumps and groves at a faster pace. So should a ride to reduce leaning as hard on faster turns ?
Isn't that the point of dragging knee?
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:03 PM   #10
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Isn't that the point of dragging knee?
Imagine you’re taking an infinite right turn. The turn grows infinitely wider. In taking this turn you maintain a constant lean angle. In order to do this you would have to increase your speed. Let’s assume you’re dragging your knee the entire time. As speed increases commensurate to the expanding radius, dose traction become more tenuous?
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:11 PM   #12
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The frame is designed to flex when the bike is leaned over. Especially the headstock area. If it's too stiff the bike will low side with no warning. The flexing increases grip and also gives the rider feedback. Your motorcycle is tuned to be predictable at high lean angles.

You mentioned lean angle and showed a number on a LCD screen. I assume that's your bike. On the road and at the lean angles you will likely achieve riding with Keith (I know you ride with Keith which is why I mentioned him) it's a non issue. But to take it a little further, the lean angle sensor in your bike is likely calibrated at the factory to 0 degrees (let's call 0 degrees horizontal). The roads we ride on are rarely horizontal. They are purposely at an angle for usually two reasons. One is for water runoff and the other is to equalize the cornering forces at some predetermined speed. That's why in some corners you don't feel like you're being pushed out of the car but on some other slower corners it's pretty intense. This is also shown on nascar tracks where you have to maintain a certain speed for the car to not want to drift to the center of the track. So on a bike with a reading at say 20 degrees (depending on speed) you might be sitting straight up when on a nascar track. So the absolute angle is 20 degrees but your lean angle relative to the riding surface is 0 degrees. This is relevant because your bike will show 45 degrees sometimes and 30 at others and because the road is not horizontal but the meter is comparing your lean angle to a horizontal reference, the lean angle indicator for relative measurement is pretty useless unless you get survey charts with the roads angles. And of course we know at times roads crest in the middle just to add a bit more confusion. Therefore, for most of us the lean angle meter is good for comparing but not formal absolute numbers.

Someone mentioned dragging knee. The purpose of dragging knee is not to decrease lean angles, it is to have a feeler gauge so you know how much more lean you have before losing the tire or scraping hard parts. The person who posted this might know that but others do not, which is why it is included.
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:23 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Kevin7909;4177222]The frame is designed to flex when the bike is leaned over. Especially the headstock area. If it's too stiff the bike will low side with no warning. The flexing increases grip and also gives the rider feedback. Your motorcycle is tuned to be predictable at high lean angles.

You mentioned lean angle and showed a number on a LCD screen. I assume that's your bike. On the road and at the lean angles you will likely achieve riding with Keith (I know you ride with Keith which is why I mentioned him) it's a non issue. But to take it a little further, the lean angle sensor in your bike is likely calibrated at the factory to 0 degrees (let's call 0 degrees horizontal). The roads we ride on are rarely horizontal. They are purposely at an angle for usually two reasons. One is for water runoff and the other is to equalize the cornering forces at some predetermined speed. That's why in some corners you don't feel like you're being pushed out of the car but on some other slower corners it's pretty intense. This is also shown on nascar tracks where you have to maintain a certain speed for the car to not want to drift to the center of the track. So on a bike with a reading at say 20 degrees (depending on speed) you might be sitting straight up when on a nascar track. So the absolute angle is 20 degrees but your lean angle relative to the riding surface is 0 degrees. This is relevant because your bike will show 45 degrees sometimes and 30 at others and because the road is not horizontal but the meter is comparing your lean angle to a horizontal reference, the lean angle indicator for relative measurement is pretty useless unless you get survey charts with the roads angles. And of course we know at times roads crest in the middle just to add a bit more confusion. Therefore, for most of us the lean angle meter is good for comparing but not formal absolute numbers.

Someone mentioned dragging knee. The purpose of dragging knee is not to decrease lean angles, it is to have a feeler gauge so you know how much more lean you have before losing the tire or scraping hard parts. The person who posted this might know that but others do not, which is why it is included.[/

Sorry, I hope the picture wasn’t misleading. It was used to illustrate an idea Only but not be specific. Please see the post right above your last one. This is kinda theoretical.
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:32 PM   #14
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Old 06-14-2019, 05:45 PM   #15
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Analysis Paralysis...just go ride, it will make sense in the real world.

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It was a thought I was entertaining for fun.

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Old 06-14-2019, 07:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin7909 View Post
The frame is designed to flex when the bike is leaned over. Especially the headstock area. If it's too stiff the bike will low side with no warning. The flexing increases grip and also gives the rider feedback. Your motorcycle is tuned to be predictable at high lean angles.

You mentioned lean angle and showed a number on a LCD screen. I assume that's your bike. On the road and at the lean angles you will likely achieve riding with Keith (I know you ride with Keith which is why I mentioned him) it's a non issue. But to take it a little further, the lean angle sensor in your bike is likely calibrated at the factory to 0 degrees (let's call 0 degrees horizontal). The roads we ride on are rarely horizontal. They are purposely at an angle for usually two reasons. One is for water runoff and the other is to equalize the cornering forces at some predetermined speed. That's why in some corners you don't feel like you're being pushed out of the car but on some other slower corners it's pretty intense. This is also shown on nascar tracks where you have to maintain a certain speed for the car to not want to drift to the center of the track. So on a bike with a reading at say 20 degrees (depending on speed) you might be sitting straight up when on a nascar track. So the absolute angle is 20 degrees but your lean angle relative to the riding surface is 0 degrees. This is relevant because your bike will show 45 degrees sometimes and 30 at others and because the road is not horizontal but the meter is comparing your lean angle to a horizontal reference, the lean angle indicator for relative measurement is pretty useless unless you get survey charts with the roads angles. And of course we know at times roads crest in the middle just to add a bit more confusion. Therefore, for most of us the lean angle meter is good for comparing but not formal absolute numbers.

Someone mentioned dragging knee. The purpose of dragging knee is not to decrease lean angles, it is to have a feeler gauge so you know how much more lean you have before losing the tire or scraping hard parts. The person who posted this might know that but others do not, which is why it is included.
Sorry, I hope the picture wasn’t misleading. It was used to illustrate an idea Only but not be specific. Please see the post right above your last one. This is kinda theoretical
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
I knew I would be elaborating on this. So. Lest say a rider is taking corners at an average of 60-80 mph at an average of 45-52 degrees lean. My thought is that as speed increases, say 120-140, the same lean angle becomes more precarious as the suspension has to work harder to soak up more bumps and groves at a faster pace. So should a ride to reduce leaning as hard on faster turns ?
The only way to affect the lean angle at a given speed, is to hang off the bike. Anyway, take the rider out of the equation. Say you could operate a bike by remote control. The faster a bike goes through the same turn on the same line, physics dictates that the bike leans more, period. There's nothing anyone can do to change that.

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Old 06-14-2019, 08:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevo View Post
The only way to affect the lean angle at a given speed, is to hang off the bike. Anyway, take the rider out of the equation. Say you could operate a bike by remote control. The faster a bike goes through the same turn on the same line, physics dictates that the bike leans more, period. There's nothing anyone can do to change that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oq1zr1Tkk
Thanks Bevo. I understand. Iíll drop this, but Iíd like to clarify what I was asking one last time.

So here is a re-post of the theoretical question the way it should have been asked:

****Imagine youíre taking an infinite right turn. The turn grows infinitely wider. In taking this turn you maintain a constant lean angle. In order to do this you would have to increase your speed. Letís assume youíre dragging your knee the entire time. As speed increases commensurate to the expanding radius, dose traction become more tenuous? ****
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
Thanks Bevo. I understand. I’ll drop this, but I’d like to clarify what I was asking one last time.

So here is a re-post of the theoretical question the way it should have been asked:

****Imagine you’re taking an infinite right turn. The turn grows infinitely wider. In taking this turn you maintain a constant lean angle. In order to do this you would have to increase your speed. Let’s assume you’re dragging your knee the entire time. As speed increases commensurate to the expanding radius, dose traction become more tenuous? ****
If you're dragging knee the entire time is your body fixed in one position? I can drag knee, but I'm not hanging off so far I can drag elbow like Marquez. Take the rider's body position out of the equation. If the path you're following is gradually decreasing in radius, then to maintain the same lean angle the bike would have to accelerate throughout that radius.
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
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If you're dragging knee the entire time is your body fixed in one position? I can drag knee, but I'm not hanging off so far I can drag elbow like Marquez. Take the rider's body position out of the equation. If the path you're following is gradually decreasing in radius, then to maintain the same lean angle the bike would have to accelerate throughout that radius.
Exactly!!!

Thatís the scenario. Is traction equal, given the same lean angle, at all speeds?

So I was considering that it takes time for suspension to travel, tires to deform around road surface, etcetera. And so a given lean angle may be radical but stable in a tight, low speed corner but much less stable when applied in a high speed corner. But considering that is only my own conjecture I threw it out in the forme because my tuono blew up and Iím super f*ckín board!
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