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Old 03-08-2010, 03:01 PM   #1
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Good Bye "Habeas Corpus", Hello "Enemy Belligerent Act of 2010"

Yet again, here we are staring at yet another egregious breach of our Constitutional protections. There is a bill that has been introduced which basically ts on any notion of a bill of rights and spits in the face of any one claiming one of the fundaments of western civilization, the institution of habeas corpus. The worst part is that the executive office viz. the President (aka der Fuhrer) alone (that is, without any checks and balances) determines who is an unprivileged belligerent and when they no longer pose a threat which could be for the duration of hostilities vis a vis indefinitely. THIS IS NOT "FOR PLAY" (this bill was introduced a few days ago, here is a John McCain press release on it). Why is the news not reporting on this? Kind of important news...

Here is a particularly important section of the very real bill:

Quote:
SEC. 5. DETENTION WITHOUT TRIAL OF UNPRIVILEGED ENEMY BELLIGERENTS.

An individual, including a citizen of the United States, determined to be an unprivileged enemy belligerent under section 3(c)(2) in a manner which satisfies Article 5 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War may be detained without criminal charges and without trial for the duration of hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners in which the individual has engaged, or which the individual has purposely and materially supported, consistent with the law of war and any authorization for the use of military force provided by Congress pertaining to such hostilities.
...sounding a bit Orwellian? Well uh "yeah"...

Here's an article on it...

Quote:
The “Enemy Belligerent, Interrogation, Detention, and Prosecution Act of 2010,” introduced by Senators John McCain and Joseph Lieberman on Thursday with little fanfare, “sets out a comprehensive policy for the detention, interrogation and trial of suspected enemy belligerents who are believed to have engaged in hostilities against the United States by requiring these individuals to be held in military custody, interrogated for their intelligence value and not provided with a Miranda warning,” writes the Atlantic’s Marc Ambinder...

...The bill does not distinguish between U.S. citizens and non-citizens, and states that “suspected belligerents” who are “considered a “high-value detainee” shall not be provided with a Miranda warning.”
Here's a link to the bill: THE ENEMY BELLIGERENT INTERROGATION, DETENTION, AND PROSECUTION ACT OF 2010

Here is John McCain's statement on the floor regarding his Enemy Belligerents Bill
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:06 PM   #2
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Man, I'm glad you posted something. I was starting to get bored.
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:12 PM   #3
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Holy fvcking .

So....what exactly counts as "hostilities towards the United States"?

Answer: Probably whatever the fvck they want.
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:22 PM   #4
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Specifically, this bill would require unprivileged enemy belligerents suspected of engaging in hostilities against the U.S. to be held in military custody and interrogated for their intelligence value by a “high value detainee” interagency team established by the President.
That's some scary right there.......
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:29 PM   #5
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A person is considered a “high value detainee” if they fulfil one of the following criteria.

(1) poses a threat of an attack on civilians or civilian facilities within the U.S. or U.S. facilities abroad; (2) poses a threat to U.S. military personnel or U.S. military facilities; (3) potential intelligence value; (4) is a member of al Qaeda or a terrorist group affiliated with al Qaeda or (5) such other matters as the President considers appropriate.
poses a threat of attack... based on what knowledge? does it matter the source or if they just think you're a threat to another person. i threaten civilians all the time... break into my house, you will be shot. is that not an attack on a civilian?
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #6
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I'm speechless. Unbelievable....absolutely unfrigginbelievable
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #7
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I'll hold my anger till when this bill actually get passed ...
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:53 PM   #8
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I'll hold my anger till when this bill actually get passed ...
...and it'll be far too late
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:57 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by FKNA View Post
I'm speechless. Unbelievable....absolutely unfrigginbelievable
This would be a good opportunity for Tea Parties to show they mean business and are not just a platform to lash out at the current administration (I'm speaking in general terms here, I know there are really some genuine Constitutionalist out there within the Tea Party movement).
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
I'll hold my anger till when this bill actually get passed ...
Isn't that the problem we're trying to fight here, Thomas?
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:59 PM   #11
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seems kinda ironic to me that McCain (whom I believe was tortured) introduced this bill.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:06 PM   #12
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Isn't that the problem we're trying to fight here, Thomas?
you have a point ...

I wonder what all of those here that supported suspending the Constitution when dealing with US citizens accused of fighting against the US think on this.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
you have a point ...

I wonder what all of those here that supported suspending the Constitution when dealing with US citizens accused of fighting against the US think on this.
Oh it won't bother them. That is until the “high value detainee interagency team" is kicking down their door and hauling their off to a military prison, just for talking smack on the internet. Then they'll be concerned.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadracerNC View Post
This would be a good opportunity for Tea Parties to show they mean business and are not just a platform to lash out at the current administration (I'm speaking in general terms here, I know there are really some genuine Constitutionalist out there within the Tea Party movement).
Until the current health care bill gets killed, I do not see anything getting much traction within the tea party movement. Which is understandable. You cannot have a movement that is all over the place, for when you do, the movement would lose traction. With that said, I agree......this bill is something that people need to latch onto and make a lot of noise over
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:54 PM   #15
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Yet again, here we are staring at yet another egregious breach of our Constitutional protections. There is a bill that has been introduced which basically ts on any notion of a bill of rights and spits in the face of any one claiming one of the fundaments of western civilization, the institution of habeas corpus. The worst part is that the executive office viz. the President (aka der Fuhrer) alone (that is, without any checks and balances) determines who is an unprivileged belligerent and when they no longer pose a threat which could be for the duration of hostilities vis a vis indefinitely. THIS IS NOT "FOR PLAY" (this bill was introduced a few days ago, here is a John McCain press release on it). Why is the news not reporting on this? Kind of important news...

Here is a particularly important section of the very real bill:



...sounding a bit Orwellian? Well uh "yeah"...

Here's an article on it...



Here's a link to the bill: THE ENEMY BELLIGERENT INTERROGATION, DETENTION, AND PROSECUTION ACT OF 2010

Here is John McCain's statement on the floor regarding his Enemy

Belligerents Bill
and how does that affects me or you?
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:53 PM   #17
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Roadracer....now that I am in front of a computer instead of my cell, let me expound some. You are forever telling us to look at the people electing these wipes into office. Tea Party people make up part of those voters. Before I get into what I want to, let's do some simple math. There are 168 hours in a week, average work week 40 hours, then another 56 hours sleep time, another 5 hours per week for lunch, then another average of 4 hours commute time to work each week. So far that brings us down to 63 hours per week. Add in cooking, cleaning, yard work, errands, kids, etc.....just how many hours of leisure does that leave a person each week? I'm doing the math to illustrate a point.....we have lives out here. There are many around that don't have the time to read these enormous bills. Furthermore, many can't make heads or tails of what they are reading. So what do people do? They latch onto things they can comprehend. They look at things in which they can equate to something in their own lives. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see we are spending money we don't have. It doesn't take a high IQ to figure out that someone is saying the complete opposite of what you want. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that focusing most of your attention on health care when unemployment is hovering around 10% isn't the best course of action.

Not to say Tea Party people are stupid. Just pointing out realities of life. Someone like you and I may be able to read this proposed bill and be able to make heads and tails of it. But the average person out there.....well, it will be like they are reading Greek and won't be able to make heads and tails of it. People like you and I wasn't born with the ability to understand these bills. The more likely scenario is we took some time out of our precious "free" time (for some, maybe they took it out of their work schedule, lol) to learn more about what we are reading so that we understand. Same holds true with this Belligerent bill.....unless people really understand what is there and/or can equate to something in their own lives, it's not that they are not true constitutionalists or don't believe the core values that they put forth......but instead, they just don't understand. And those that do understand, well......let's put it this way......remember the saying, pick your battles? If you're going to rally the troops, you gotta pick something that resonates. And right now, that topic that resonates is.....$$$.....taxes........big government.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:53 PM   #18
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and how does that affects me or you?
You jest, don't you?
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:56 PM   #19
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You jest, don't you?
I HOPE SO....
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNA View Post
Roadracer....now that I am in front of a computer instead of my cell, let me expound some. You are forever telling us to look at the people electing these wipes into office. Tea Party people make up part of those voters. Before I get into what I want to, let's do some simple math. There are 168 hours in a week, average work week 40 hours, then another 56 hours sleep time, another 5 hours per week for lunch, then another average of 4 hours commute time to work each week. So far that brings us down to 63 hours per week. Add in cooking, cleaning, yard work, errands, kids, etc.....just how many hours of leisure does that leave a person each week? I'm doing the math to illustrate a point.....we have lives out here. There are many around that don't have the time to read these enormous bills. Furthermore, many can't make heads or tails of what they are reading. So what do people do? They latch onto things they can comprehend. They look at things in which they can equate to something in their own lives. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see we are spending money we don't have. It doesn't take a high IQ to figure out that someone is saying the complete opposite of what you want. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that focusing most of your attention on health care when unemployment is hovering around 10% isn't the best course of action.

Not to say Tea Party people are stupid. Just pointing out realities of life. Someone like you and I may be able to read this proposed bill and be able to make heads and tails of it. But the average person out there.....well, it will be like they are reading Greek and won't be able to make heads and tails of it. People like you and I wasn't born with the ability to understand these bills. The more likely scenario is we took some time out of our precious "free" time (for some, maybe they took it out of their work schedule, lol) to learn more about what we are reading so that we understand. Same holds true with this Belligerent bill.....unless people really understand what is there and/or can equate to something in their own lives, it's not that they are not true constitutionalists or don't believe the core values that they put forth......but instead, they just don't understand. And those that do understand, well......let's put it this way......remember the saying, pick your battles? If you're going to rally the troops, you gotta pick something that resonates. And right now, that topic that resonates is.....$$$.....taxes........big government.
I believe we are in complete agreement here. You don't want your argument going in 100 different directions.

The only problem I would point out is where you speak of how most people just flat out don't understand these bills and their language. That's a big problem I've argued several times. We, the people, have passed off the duty of understanding these bills and legislation alike to lawyers, historians, politicians and so on, and have allowed them to write them is such a way as to confuse the average Joe. That's no bueno. People obviously have families and lives to attend to. But those of us that see what we see, and know what we know, regardless of what is going on in our personal lives, IMHO, are obligated to do something about it.
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