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Old 12-06-2019, 04:48 PM   #221
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Old 12-06-2019, 08:02 PM   #222
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Is it then possible, even if brought up in the best of environments, that the child could be genetically predisposed to commit the same type of atrocities?
Well, there is no such thing as a "rapist" gene, and genetic traits do not determine adult behavior. You would be ending the life of a child based on an outside possibility that they MIGHT do something wicked in their lifetime. Convicted rapists are not put to death so why would you put the innocent product of a rape to death based on speculation? I would bet that the majority of them are fully-functioning, productive members of our society.



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And yes, the mother will have emotional distress, but wouldn't carrying the baby to term and possibly keeping it just be an in your face reminder?
It could be if you let it. Depends what your focus is. You can also decide to stop being victimized by the perpetrator/event and choose to see the new life as something beautiful and full of hope. It’s not an easy road either way, but abortion is not going to erase what happened or ease your suffering. Conversely, love can be quite healing.

There are lots of articles out there both from people who were conceived by rape and from rape victims who had to make tough decisions. Like I said, it’s not all rainbows and butterflies, but it’s up to each of us to make the best of the hand we have been dealt. Here are some positive articles from each of these groups.

From women who have lived it: https://thefederalist.com/2019/05/22...y-pregnancies/

From a woman who was conceived by rape and is happy to be alive: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/kath...y-life-matters
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Old 12-09-2019, 09:47 AM   #223
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I didnt mean "free" in that sense, basically greening the sense of free to get the clear I guess.
Yeah, I misunderstood you the first time, but on further consideration I don't think it changes my response. To put it in terms of availability of medicine, let's make three tiers: Tylenol (pick up from any corner store), Vicodin (need at least a doctor to prescribe), or Cocaine (illegal just about everywhere). I'm arguing for somewhere in that middle tier, where you'd at least need a proper doctor as the gateway.

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While rape is absolutely a traumatic event, it is not a valid reason to kill a baby. Rape does not justify murder. The mother will have lasting emotional distress from the rape regardlessÖand now sheíll have the guilt of committing an abortion on top of it. Although the baby is part of the rapist, it is also part of the mother and there can be much love and happiness, as a result, if the mother can open her heart to it. If sheís not able to adjust, then adoption is the reasonable choice. Iím sorry that there is evil in the world and my heart goes out to every woman who has experienced this situation, but 2 wrongs do not make a right.
sorry, we're going to have to disagree there. I'm Christian, and get where you're coming from, but...:
a) I tend to take a biological approach, rather than emotional. in my opinion, if the fetus is not yet viable to live outside the mother, it's not really fair to treat it as an independent being. it's simply a parasite, from a biological standpoint. Again, I'm morally opposed to abortion in most cases, but I have a hard time accepting a ball of cells the size of a grape, heartbeat or not, as a lawful individual human. I've known a few people who have made this decision, and while it can lead to guilt, it can also be the "right decision" for the person and give them a chance to heal.

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...
Money is nothing in comparison to the sanctity of -created human life.
b) Is one person raping another an act of ? If so, then you've just taken responsibility for the action out of the rapist's hands. Is a dog getting pregnant an act of , or is it simply biological imperative to continue the existence of life? I believe in "intelligent design", and that a certain set of rules and mechanisms were put in place around which the universe functions (which physics, chemistry, biology, etc strive to discover). I don't believe triggering a biological mechanism through an act of violence to be a direct act of . I'd actually closer equate this argument to the fundamentalists who refuse any medical treatment for them or their kids because " will bring healing if He wills it."

I don't even want to change your mind about this. Again, just my opinion, and this comes down to a difference in personal spiritual/religious belief, but I also believe that religion and subjective moral code should not be law.
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Old 12-09-2019, 09:56 AM   #224
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I took too long formatting that response... I had a much better wording/formatting, but got kicked out by the 5 minute edit rule. Ignore that second part of *Princess*s quote, it really didn't make sense there... that was really all supposed to be in response to the first part I quoted, I just messed up when re-formatting after typing out a small essay and deciding I needed to pare it down.
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:26 AM   #225
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The problem with needing a dr approval for abortion is the fact that there are WAY too many quacks out there.. it's a big reason we have an opioid epidemic, drs are just prescribing meds for anything.. my friend got prescribed a high dose of Klonopin to help her sleep.. that medication isn't for sleep (I dont care what anyone says) and it your head up.. she was seeing things that weren't there, hearing things that weren't there.. having panic attacks and thinking people were outside the house waiting for her to take her, all sorts of crazy stuff. Instead what worked was a brand called zarbees.. a natural children's dose of melatonin chewable tablet lol. Theres all sorts of stories like this and I'm sure everyone knows atleast 1 person that knows a dr they can see to get prescribed whatever they want.
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Old 12-09-2019, 11:35 AM   #226
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I guess my issues is, science and religion tells us from the time of conception there is a new life. Some see that life as a baby human life, others see it as a parasite. There will never be an agreement on this matter. I'm on the side that it is a human life and I respect your opinion of it being a fetus. The biggest problem I have is people using it as birth control. Theres 0 remorse that they just ended a life and it's just another day.

Let me ask you this, if a pregnant woman is killed, do you believe the person should be hit with 2 murder charges or 1?
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Old 12-09-2019, 02:02 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Jae View Post
sorry, we're going to have to disagree there. I'm Christian, and get where you're coming from, but...:
a) I tend to take a biological approach, rather than emotional. in my opinion, if the fetus is not yet viable to live outside the mother, it's not really fair to treat it as an independent being. it's simply a parasite, from a biological standpoint. Again, I'm morally opposed to abortion in most cases, but I have a hard time accepting a ball of cells the size of a grape, heartbeat or not, as a lawful individual human.

I don't even want to change your mind about this. Again, just my opinion, and this comes down to a difference in personal spiritual/religious belief, but I also believe that religion and subjective moral code should not be law.
I don’t think my stance is an emotional one at all. Biologically, although a fetus cannot live on its own, from conception the new clump of cells is a new individual. Before 8 days, the cells have not formed its entire genetic structure, it’s still in the process of doing that, but those cells are also not composed of only the father’s genetics or only the mother’s genetics. There is no other genetic match to those cells, so it is a new genetic entity, and in that sense is a unique, new being. It is distinctly its own person. And I believe, already has a soul. And although it needs the mother’s body for support for a few months, it is not part of the mother’s body; it is its own body. This also addresses the “My body, my choice” argument.

If religion and subjective moral code should not be law, then what should be? Standards have to come from somewhere. If it’s all subjective then there should be no laws. Obviously there are lots of people in the world that think it’s perfectly fine to rape, murder, steal, etc.

As is, murder is against the law, and since abortion is ending the life of another individual, it is murder/homicide. There’s no way around it.

My comment about money being nothing compared to the sanctity of life was in reference to comments about what a financial drain kids in the foster system can be if we take away abortion as an option.

Thank you for your opinion. I, too, appreciate that we can have a friendly discussion about this very important matter.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:15 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Princess* View Post
My comment about money being nothing compared to the sanctity of life was in reference to comments about what a financial drain kids in the foster system can be if we take away abortion as an option.
I know, it was entirely out of context where it ended up in my answer. I tried to respond to multiple posts at once, and attempted to break it down even further with yours, and ended up making my response even less clear in the process. Both parts of my response were related to the first part of the quote that I had broken out. I think abortion should be available to rape victims (especially). At the end of the day though, it boils down to me not imposing my personal opinion on someone else's body. Kind of the same logic I apply to what should or should not be law. I think the law should keep you from harming another person, and you're right that this is where it gets so sticky, in that it becomes very difficult to come to a consensus on where that line is, and at what point you take away the mother's agency over her body in favor of an unwanted second.

I fully agree that there needs to be a lot more support for the kids in the system that's in place, if not completely overhaul it altogether. We do such a horrible job of taking care of the people most vulnerable in our society (orphans/unwanted kids, disabled, homeless) as it is, I would much rather see us putting resources into fixing the issues we have with the living than to worry about adding to the problem with the as-of-yet-unborn... especially when it can be as easy as actually teaching kids of a (physically) mature age how their bodies actually work so we can prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

*Princess*, I can't remember, do you have kids of your own? (edit: , this is such a bad context to attach this question, and it really wasn't related, I just honestly couldn't remember.)
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Old 12-10-2019, 03:03 PM   #229
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*Princess*, I can't remember, do you have kids of your own?
Nope, no kids for me.


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I think abortion should be available to rape victims (especially).
Well, then that leaves us where we are now - since anyone can claim rape - in a society where abortion is legal and is being used as an after-the-fact birth control, and over 600,000 babies are being slaughtered each year. 600,000!!! And thatís just in America! I find this staggering and utterly sickening. A wide array of contraceptives is readily available to everyone. USE THEM! Much cheaper and less guilt-ridden than an abortion.


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We do such a horrible job of taking care of the people most vulnerable in our society...
Seems a bit of a hypocritical statement since an unborn child is the most vulnerable person there is, all due respect. But yes, this country has some skewed priorities.


I donít really know what else can be said. We have both clearly stated our views/beliefs. I understand your point of view Ė you are in the majority, and itís the easier option Ė but knowing that the unborn are unique individuals (their own person) from the beginning, I just can't get past it. I believe they should be protected.


What is your answer to UpononeR6's last question?
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Old 12-10-2019, 03:27 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Princess* View Post
What is your answer to UpononeR6's last question?
Assume you meant this one (that I completely overlooked)?

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Let me ask you this, if a pregnant woman is killed, do you believe the person should be hit with 2 murder charges or 1?
If so, I think the shortest answer I can give is that that should be determined based on how far along she was. Again, I think the situation changes when you take away the mother's agency over her own body. I'd say that if you could show she knew she was pregnant it can be assumed that she was choosing to carry the pregnancy to term and that it was a future-child under her care.
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Old 12-10-2019, 05:03 PM   #231
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Assume you meant this one (that I completely overlooked)?



If so, I think the shortest answer I can give is that that should be determined based on how far along she was. Again, I think the situation changes when you take away the mother's agency over her own body. I'd say that if you could show she knew she was pregnant it can be assumed that she was choosing to carry the pregnancy to term and that it was a future-child under her care.
So going by that response, acknowledging that a woman is pregnant would be acknowledging that she is carrying a separate life. This argument is what really convinced me that I knew my stance on abortion.
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Old Yesterday, 12:51 PM   #232
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...the mother's agency over her own body...
But thatís just it: The baby inside her is not her body. Itís a separate body. She is responsible for it the same as you are responsible for your 3 kids, and she should be held to the same standards and abide by the same laws as you. She should be afforded as much agency as you are.
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 PM   #233
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 PM   #234
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Old Today, 01:16 PM   #235
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I respect that stance, and again, from a moral standpoint, I agree.

I still think there are situations where it's understandable, and should be legally acceptable, to terminate a pregnancy.
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Old Today, 01:56 PM   #236
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Quote:
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But thatís just it: The baby inside her is not her body. Itís a separate body. She is responsible for it the same as you are responsible for your 3 kids, and she should be held to the same standards and abide by the same laws as you. She should be afforded as much agency as you are.
>>> so what consequenses should befall a woman who aborts her pregnancy ???????????????? >>> it seems that you consider abortions MURDER leaving you the fallback of justifying some aborts(rape-incest) and having no consistent answer for Down syndrome and other genetic defects BTW jack suggests a pic of you and your bike to the XMASin prison thread
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