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Old 01-11-2009, 04:51 AM   #1
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high gas bill shuts down veteran memorial

they turned it back on but its getting bad.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090110/..._eternal_flame
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:18 AM   #2
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i imagine vets would rather have the money spent on something useful and practical anyways. when 1 in 4 homeless people are vets, VA facilities are horrible, etc-who really gives a **** about some 'eternal flame'-put up a fluorescent light or something.
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Old 01-11-2009, 05:28 AM   #3
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while sad....i kinda agree with alice. i would think $1000/month could be spent to take better care of all the homeless vets in their city.
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Old 01-11-2009, 07:17 AM   #4
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I think if you want to save money there are tons of government programs that could be cut, most of which I'd rather see go than the memorial. I don't feel bothered that my tax dollars are going to honor our fallen, I do feel bothered when I see pregnant welfare recipetents.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02 View Post
i imagine vets would rather have the money spent on something useful and practical anyways. when 1 in 4 homeless people are vets, VA facilities are horrible, etc-who really gives a **** about some 'eternal flame'-put up a fluorescent light or something.
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I think if you want to save money there are tons of government programs that could be cut, most of which I'd rather see go than the memorial. I don't feel bothered that my tax dollars are going to honor our fallen, I do feel bothered when I see pregnant welfare recipetents.
Good comments. Our government really needs to rethink how our tax dollars get spent. They need to stop funneling money overseas and bailing out idiots that failed at running major business'
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:49 AM   #6
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:55 AM   #7
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i think you guys completely missed the point, but whatever.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:56 AM   #8
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Sometimes symbolism, like the eternal flame, can go a long way to inspire people and make them feel deeply about what sacrifices have been made to allow them the freedoms they enjoy.
It's hard to put a price tag on things like that. Maybe a smaller burner is appropriate, to reduce the cost, but putting out the flame entirely is wrong.
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:56 AM   #9
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i imagine vets would rather have the money spent on something useful and practical anyways. when 1 in 4 homeless people are vets, VA facilities are horrible, etc-who really gives a **** about some 'eternal flame'-put up a fluorescent light or something.
you hate this country and you despise its soldiers. i doubt very seriously you would even have a clue as to what they would prefer in regards to anything at all.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:10 AM   #10
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I think if you want to save money there are tons of government programs that could be cut, most of which I'd rather see go than the memorial. I don't feel bothered that my tax dollars are going to honor our fallen, I do feel bothered when I see pregnant welfare recipetents.
maybe the flame is worth it if it's some huge deal and means a lot to many people....it just seems like the money could be better spent otherwise. and i don't just feel this way about military things, i see govt. waste in lots of things-like big fancy inauguration ceremonies, and, yes...maintaining lazy people on welfare(although I'm not sure if this is the majority of cases)-let them go rough it on the streets with our vets. we need to cut back on things that aren't vital and practical.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:27 AM   #11
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I agree with some of what you say Alice. Not much but some.

Something to think about;

Back in the fifties taxes were lower and the population was much smaller, yet there was enough money to build a space program, build nice public buildings out of granite and walnut, build freeways, support tech development, etc. etc.

Now taxes are much higher AND the population is larger (meaning a larger tax base) and yet we cut the NASA budget to the minimum, public buildings are cheaply built by comparison, now we build tollways and tech development budgets are down, etc. etc...

Where is all the money going?
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:43 AM   #12
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that is sad that it has to come to that. I do think they should have calculated the rate of burn though for the size burner they chose, so they would have an idea of how expensive operating costs would be. Poor planning right there, though it is a good cause.

It seems to me that so many people now have a sense of entitlement and will not work hard to earn their way in life because the government is so ready to give you a hand. Before I spent near time homeless and living on the street off an on I felt sorry for most people that are homeless. After going through that experience I feel a lot less pity on those people, the ones I fell bad for are those that have had unfortunate experiences outside of their control, too many though are homeless by choice and do not want to make the effort needed to make their own way and instead count on a hand out from the government, and from people who feel pity on them. That attitude permeates our society.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:48 AM   #13
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I agree with some of what you say Alice. Not much but some.

Something to think about;

Back in the fifties taxes were lower and the population was much smaller, yet there was enough money to build a space program, build nice public buildings out of granite and walnut, build freeways, support tech development, etc. etc.

Now taxes are much higher AND the population is larger (meaning a larger tax base) and yet we cut the NASA budget to the minimum, public buildings are cheaply built by comparison, now we build tollways and tech development budgets are down, etc. etc...

Where is all the money going?
I'm not sure...I imagine there's an explanation out there somewhere though.
Where do you think the money's going?
Our national debt was 117% of our GDP after WW2-nearly double what it is now...maybe there's some correlation with war spending and money availability?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...idential_terms
I was surprised to see that the republican presidents increased the debt much moreso than the democrat ones, and did not increase the GDP as much...i thought democrats were destroying the country with welfare or something?
I don't know much about economics though, much less economic history..that 's really complex.
I don't think it can all be reduced to space programs, marble buildings, interstate project, population, etc. though.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:50 AM   #14
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too many though are homeless by choice and do not want to make the effort needed to make their own way and instead count on a hand out from the government, and from people who feel pity on them. That attitude permeates our society.

I agree that attitude permeates our society, but most homeless people are not there because they don't want to work.
They are there because they have substance abuse problems and/or are mentally unable to hold down a job. Watch them and you will see many muttering to themselves, they are crazy.
We should have better and larger facilities to treat/house them so they don't have to live under a bridge. With treatment some can become independent or at least more able to take care of themselves.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:50 AM   #15
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I do agree that maybe some forsight into how much maintenance on this thing would cost probably should have been thought of before building it.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:55 AM   #16
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that is sad that it has to come to that. I do think they should have calculated the rate of burn though for the size burner they chose, so they would have an idea of how expensive operating costs would be. Poor planning right there, though it is a good cause.

It seems to me that so many people now have a sense of entitlement and will not work hard to earn their way in life because the government is so ready to give you a hand. Before I spent near time homeless and living on the street off an on I felt sorry for most people that are homeless. After going through that experience I feel a lot less pity on those people, the ones I fell bad for are those that have had unfortunate experiences outside of their control, too many though are homeless by choice and do not want to make the effort needed to make their own way and instead count on a hand out from the government, and from people who feel pity on them. That attitude permeates our society.
So you don't feel bad for say..the undrafted, and now crazy, vets because they put themselves into situations that ****ed their heads up, but you feel bad for the people born into poverty/broken homes and never learned proper ways of living?
Or do you just mean like people who have had their houses burn down, born with mental illness, etc.?
I don't know if I'd pity a homeless person less because they choose it...that just seems like more of a reason to pity them. It's not like sleeping on the streets and eating at a soup kitchen is such a great life to choose just because they don't have to go to work-they're off in the head if they choose to be homeless imo.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:56 AM   #17
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I agree that attitude permeates our society, but most homeless people are not there because they don't want to work.
They are there because they have substance abuse problems and/or are mentally unable to hold down a job. Watch them and you will see many muttering to themselves, they are crazy.
We should have better and larger facilities to treat/house them so they don't have to live under a bridge. With treatment some can become independent or at least more able to take care of themselves.
in areas they have done that it still does not make a huge impact, though it does help. The problem is even the mentally ill need to WANT to work hard to get better. You cannot force treatment on a person that does not want it. The same goes for drug addicts as well. My brother lived on the streets for a long time. Hawaii has a very supportive socialized system, they hand out many drugs for free to reduce crime from homeless junkies. All this did was allow him to be homeless longer and avoid making a choice about whether he wanted to get better or not. It all comes down to a desire to improve your life, but many people do not yet have that desire.
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
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I don't know if I'd pity a homeless person less because they choose it...that just seems like more of a reason to pity them. It's not like sleeping on the streets and eating at a soup kitchen is such a great life to choose just because they don't have to go to work-they're off in the head if they choose to be homeless imo.
OK Alice stop sayin sh*t I agree with, you're scaring me.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AliceInChains02 View Post
So you don't feel bad for say..the undrafted, and now crazy, vets because they put themselves into situations that ****ed their heads up, but you feel bad for the people born into poverty/broken homes and never learned proper ways of living?
Or do you just mean like people who have had their houses burn down, born with mental illness, etc.?
I don't know if I'd pity a homeless person less because they choose it...that just seems like more of a reason to pity them. It's not like sleeping on the streets and eating at a soup kitchen is such a great life to choose just because they don't have to go to work-they're off in the head if they choose to be homeless imo.
I do not advocate handing money out to those that I pity. If they wanted to get out of it they have MANY opportunities. I got out of it by luck, but I still managed to have a full time job for much of the time I was homeless. My brother had to enter a long term in patient treatment program when he finally decided he wanted to get better.

Would you propose forcible treatment for the mentally ill and drug addicts? Do you really think that rounding them up like cattle and forcing them into programs will really change anything? It WILL create expensive enforcement and support programs for people that in many cases are not wanting the improvement bad enough.


Let me me ask you this....you are required to do soemthing, the demand is placed on you by an outside force such as the state, your boss or your parents. Or, you really badly want a brand new zx10r, you already know what color it is, but you cannot afford it. Which goal do you work harder at achieving? The one that ins being forced upon you, or the one you chose to do out of desire?
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:03 AM   #20
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in areas they have done that it still does not make a huge impact, though it does help. The problem is even the mentally ill need to WANT to work hard to get better. You cannot force treatment on a person that does not want it. The same goes for drug addicts as well. My brother lived on the streets for a long time. Hawaii has a very supportive socialized system, they hand out many drugs for free to reduce crime from homeless junkies. All this did was allow him to be homeless longer and avoid making a choice about whether he wanted to get better or not. It all comes down to a desire to improve your life, but many people do not yet have that desire.
do you have any thing to substantiate this@programs' impact?

we Used to be able to force treatment on crazies, didn't we?? until Reagan let them out in the 80s to wander the streets-i guess so he could have some easy catches for his drug war or something??
hawaii hands out drugs? what kind?? i remember seeing a show on street kids in portland...a couple came all the way from hawaii to portland for cheaper heroin, so i guess the free drugs aren't that great.
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