MotoHouston.com MotoHouston.com
Register Members List Member Map Media Calendar Garage Forum Home Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MotoHouston.com > General Discussion > Taking it to the Track
Forgot info?

Welcome to MotoHouston.com! You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access to the community. By joining our free community you will have access to great discounts from our sponsors, the ability to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content, free email, classifieds, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join our community!

Register Today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.


FREE MH Decals by MAIL!

Advertisement

Reply
Share This Thread: 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
Old 05-24-2009, 09:56 AM   #1
Timme'
Tim-Maaaay!
 
Timme''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Georgetown, TX
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 448


Bike(s):
08 Triumph Daytona 675









Entering a hot track

I didn't want to say anything disrespectful on the thread about the fallen rider or corner worker at Barber. But I do have questions about this, this subject impacts every single one of us that corner works or gets on a race track (track day or racing).

What would I have done in the same situation? I know that getting hit by a bike at speed is life threatening, I am know that hitting an object on the race track is potentially life threatening. Both situations are not good, the question is which one is worse?

Whats the right call? In my mind, If I am corner working, I will never go onto a hot track without the red flag flying, even then I might wait until the track is clear to enter the surface. The risk is just to high for myself and any rider that hits me. I see the need to protect the riders (being one and all), but they have gear to protect themselves. Corner working you don't even have a helmet on. Secondly, A bird / puck or whatever on the track is much easier to avoid than a human moving around. Throw the flag, do the best you can to get people to slow down and then go out onto the surface. I don't know the details of the accident mentioned but man that is just a scary idea that someone could be on the track and I would have no idea....

On the flip side I feel the need to protect my friends and fellow racers on the track and might put myself at risk, especially if the danger was significant to the riders. But I still think that throwing a flag, or if I didn't have a flag, getting to someone that does is a better way to protect folks than entering a hot race track. That being said I can't imagine you have much time to sit and ponder the situation, but wow if you are in that spot think for a couple of seconds then react. It could mean your life and the life of others.

Steve M., Grinchy, what would you guys say? This to me is a very serious topic and impacts every single one of us, like it or not!
__________________
I am so busy doing nothing... that the idea of doing anything - which as you know, always leads to something - cuts into the nothing and then forces me to have to drop everything.
Timme' is offline   Reply With Quote
Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Track Suit Questions (1pc vs 2pc, Hot vs Cold) etc. Peregrine Taking it to the Track 26 08-04-2011 05:34 PM
Entering a Marriage: in style NgaWhat Off Topic 12 07-21-2011 10:46 AM
police entering the freeway buboo88 General Discussion (Moto Related) 34 10-07-2009 01:54 PM
Track bike, slightly used...Smokin hot deal. :-) Ulric General Discussion (Moto Related) 4 02-23-2008 10:01 PM
Advertisement
Old 05-24-2009, 09:59 AM   #2
BigComfy
Senior Member
 
BigComfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: under a rock
Feedback Rating: (3)
Posts: 24,322

Experience: 1-3 months
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
SV1k (sold)
CRB6 Track Bike (sold)
Daytona 1200 (parted)
1st Gen FZ1 (sold)
1st Gen SV650 (sold)

Member Garage


i would of thrown a flag and waited for it clear as well. i dont have all the details of what happened but...common sense people common sense!
BigComfy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 10:05 AM   #3
Timme'
Tim-Maaaay!
 
Timme''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Georgetown, TX
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 448


Bike(s):
08 Triumph Daytona 675









Got this off the news

"This is my understanding. The rider was a good friend of mine. Who also has close ties to the track and its operation. The track worker acknowleged there was debris (bird) on the track over the radio. He was told "DO NOT GO ONTO THE TRACK, IT IS LIVE" the worker went onto the track to "kick" the debris off the track. When the worker went onto the track the rider came onto the scene. According to the medical examiner the rider never even knew what happened."

Sounds like the corner worker didn't listen to the instructions given.
__________________
I am so busy doing nothing... that the idea of doing anything - which as you know, always leads to something - cuts into the nothing and then forces me to have to drop everything.
Timme' is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 10:18 AM   #4
Timme'
Tim-Maaaay!
 
Timme''s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Georgetown, TX
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 448


Bike(s):
08 Triumph Daytona 675









Case in point!

__________________
I am so busy doing nothing... that the idea of doing anything - which as you know, always leads to something - cuts into the nothing and then forces me to have to drop everything.
Timme' is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 10:48 AM   #5
Grinchy
Senior Member
 
Grinchy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Seabrook
Feedback Rating: (15)
Posts: 15,535

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
'prila









Quote:
Originally Posted by Timme' View Post
I didn't want to say anything disrespectful on the thread about the fallen rider or corner worker at Barber. But I do have questions about this, this subject impacts every single one of us that corner works or gets on a race track (track day or racing).

What would I have done in the same situation? I know that getting hit by a bike at speed is life threatening, I am know that hitting an object on the race track is potentially life threatening. Both situations are not good, the question is which one is worse?

Whats the right call? In my mind, If I am corner working, I will never go onto a hot track without the red flag flying, even then I might wait until the track is clear to enter the surface. The risk is just to high for myself and any rider that hits me. I see the need to protect the riders (being one and all), but they have gear to protect themselves. Corner working you don't even have a helmet on. Secondly, A bird / puck or whatever on the track is much easier to avoid than a human moving around. Throw the flag, do the best you can to get people to slow down and then go out onto the surface. I don't know the details of the accident mentioned but man that is just a scary idea that someone could be on the track and I would have no idea....

On the flip side I feel the need to protect my friends and fellow racers on the track and might put myself at risk, especially if the danger was significant to the riders. But I still think that throwing a flag, or if I didn't have a flag, getting to someone that does is a better way to protect folks than entering a hot race track. That being said I can't imagine you have much time to sit and ponder the situation, but wow if you are in that spot think for a couple of seconds then react. It could mean your life and the life of others.

Steve M., Grinchy, what would you guys say? This to me is a very serious topic and impacts every single one of us, like it or not!
Not knowing enough about the corner working system and track etiquete over there and out of respect to the fallen, I wouldn't like to comment.
We are lucky in the UK that most tracks have "employed" corner workers, or marshalls as we call them, who are there wether it be a novice group trackday or a BSB event although the clerk of the course may change.
Having said that accidents do happen unfortunately.
I remember in 2003 the racer I helped was leading at Snetterton (longest straight on the BSB calender I think) and I was standing dead opposite his braking marker on that straight cause he was having a few issues there.
A backmarker came around and on hitting his brakes (maybe 50 yards back) his belly pan came flying off in a tangle of glass fibre, he carried on.
A marshall rushed out from his post to move the debris before the leaders came back around.
My guy came full chat down the straight and was taking the moment to check his temp (our tuned R6 ran very hot there with standard rad).
When he looked up the marshall was like a stricken rabbit caught in a spotlight, directly on his line.
My guy missed him by inches at prob about 150mph.
That marshall was very lucky as was my guy as I think it would have ended only one way.
Grinchy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 01:23 PM   #6
thecrow
Senior Member
 
thecrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Downtown
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 534

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 5

Bike(s):
2003 R6









I don't know the story that ya'll are taking about, but here is my two cents. I might get reamed for it but here it is anyway. When I was working for the CMRA there were plenty of times were we went across a hot track, because unless the rider is severely injured the race is not red flagged. Riders are usually still in a crash zone and if they don't have help moving them away from that area there could be real trouble if someone else crashed in that same area. My first race I ran I was at Oak Hill and low-sided I was still on the track but I was okay. It was a hot race and they were not going to throw the red flag. The cornerworker waited for a good gap and then ran across to help me out.

There are many times where you need to help a fallen rider, but there isn't a need for a red flag. You have to make good decisions when you go across the track. Radio to the previous corner if you can't see, but always look before you cross.
thecrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 06:36 PM   #7
tiatool
Pro Racer Mode Enabled
 
tiatool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gunspoint
Feedback Rating: (14)
Posts: 8,687

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
08 Raven
05 Vstar 1100





I tell the CW to NEVER cross a hot track. It is NOT the cornerworkers responsibility to render aid to a fallen rider. That is for Rescue/Crashtruck or EMS. CW's ARE NOT trained proffessionals in medical or other such realms of knowledge. I would HATE to see a worker get injured (burned/broke/hit) trying to help a rider. The CW are the ONLY way to communicate with other riders on the track. In that case it is important to think of the whole not the individual.


Answer me this: How is a CW waiving a flag while aiding a rider? Where are the other riders supposed to be looking for a flag if there is danger in thier corner?

It may be different in a race situation, though.
__________________
sbmsafesig
tiatool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 06:52 PM   #8
thecrow
Senior Member
 
thecrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Downtown
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 534

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 5

Bike(s):
2003 R6









Quote:
Originally Posted by tiatool View Post
I tell the CW to NEVER cross a hot track. It is NOT the cornerworkers responsibility to render aid to a fallen rider. That is for Rescue/Crashtruck or EMS. CW's ARE NOT trained proffessionals in medical or other such realms of knowledge. I would HATE to see a worker get injured (burned/broke/hit) trying to help a rider. The CW are the ONLY way to communicate with other riders on the track. In that case it is important to think of the whole not the individual.


Answer me this: How is a CW waiving a flag while aiding a rider? Where are the other riders supposed to be looking for a flag if there is danger in thier corner?

It may be different in a race situation, though.
Race situation IS different. First off they aren't always short handed as I have see TTD and they have more than one person in a corner. So, one person can render aid and the other can wave the flag. The point of the cornerworker is not just to be a communicator but also help those who need help. If you threw a red flag everytime someone wrecked becuase you thought they needed medical because you couldn't see from your tower the race day would never end. Trackdays can waste as much time as they want throwing red flags, but you don't have that luxury when you are trying to run 16 sprint races in one day.
thecrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 07:07 PM   #9
dbuck
Stayin' Young
 
dbuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: NW Houston BW8/290
Feedback Rating: (5)
Posts: 19,625

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
02 Honda Superhawk









Send a message via AIM to dbuck
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timme' View Post
Case in point!
HOLY !!!!!!!! I can't even to begin to imagine.
dbuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 07:07 PM   #10
tiatool
Pro Racer Mode Enabled
 
tiatool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gunspoint
Feedback Rating: (14)
Posts: 8,687

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
08 Raven
05 Vstar 1100





Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrow View Post
Race situation IS different. First off they aren't always short handed as I have see TTD and they have more than one person in a corner. So, one person can render aid and the other can wave the flag. The point of the cornerworker is not just to be a communicator but also help those who need help. If you threw a red flag everytime someone wrecked becuase you thought they needed medical because you couldn't see from your tower the race day would never end. Trackdays can waste as much time as they want throwing red flags, but you don't have that luxury when you are trying to run 16 sprint races in one day.






That is why that disclaimer is put in there. ^^^^^^^^^^^^


But the incident at Barber happened on a track day.
__________________
sbmsafesig
tiatool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 08:00 PM   #11
Racer997
Racer, Rider, Shooter
 
Racer997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 500 yards away...and watching you in the crosshairs...
Feedback Rating: (6)
Posts: 3,872


Bike(s):
BMW Boxer Cup
KTM 450 SMR
Some Yamaha TTR 125Ls
Lackierwarenfabrik Mg42
Valmet M76






Quote:
Originally Posted by Timme' View Post
Case in point!
This incident was at Loudon some years ago. If I remember right, no fatalies, but serious injuries with this one. A very good example, indeed.

Myself and other staff for the CMRA cross a hot track many times during the course of a weekend, and not just for downed riders. It is necessary and it is sometimes dangerous, but there are many things you can do to mitiagte the risks.

I don't know the details about the Barber incident beyond what I have read from the message boards and on RRW and other sites, but Barber, becasuse of the blind nature of the track, can be a very dangerous place for race control and staff.
__________________
Supplying avatars to MH track guys since 2008.
Racer997 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 09:09 PM   #12
houseofpaint
PM for BESTPRICE on parts
 
houseofpaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Spring, TX
Feedback Rating: (7)
Posts: 9,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 Yamaha R1 racebike
2012 GSXR750 Racebike
2003 DRZ125 semiflattracker


Member Garage





Send a message via AIM to houseofpaint
a lot of you guys have probably never seen a CMRA race or cornerworked a CMRA race....or even watched an AMA/WSBK/MotoGP race. when downed riders hit the floor they don't red flag it to pick them up. the cornerworkers run out and grab the bike and if the rider isn't getting up, then the red flag is thrown.

what happened at barber was just an unfortunate accident and nothing more.
__________________
www.facebook.com/HouseOfPaintDesigns
Follow us on Instagram @hopdesigns

Custom Paint, Powdercoating, and Collision repair (Cars and bikes)[/b]
houseofpaint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 09:25 PM   #13
tiatool
Pro Racer Mode Enabled
 
tiatool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Gunspoint
Feedback Rating: (14)
Posts: 8,687

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
08 Raven
05 Vstar 1100





Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofpain View Post
a lot of you guys have probably never seen a CMRA race or cornerworked a CMRA race....or even watched an AMA/WSBK/MotoGP race. when downed riders hit the floor they don't red flag it to pick them up. the cornerworkers run out and grab the bike and if the rider isn't getting up, then the red flag is thrown.

what happened at barber was just an unfortunate accident and nothing more.

Yeah, I understand if it is in a corner. But if there is obvious danger ON TRACK. Red flag automatic in WSBK and MotoGP.

I hear what everyone is saying as far as "race" instances, but the incident at point was "race practice." In general, nobody should be going out on a hot track.
__________________
sbmsafesig
tiatool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 11:17 PM   #14
lorin70
Senior Member
 
lorin70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston - ITL
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 359

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+











I was at Barber this weekend to visit the museum and watch the WERA races. I was not there on Friday so I don't know any more about how the fatalities occurred than what was in the news. I did notice that in the races today when a rider crashed, even if it was a minor crash, the rider immediately moved out of the impact zone if they could. Only after a corner worker arrived at the bike did the rider go back to the bike and help get it up to either push it away or get back on and re-join the race. I don't know if that is the standard WERA policy or if it was changed due to what happened Friday.

On saturday it was wet conditions most of the day and I saw at least 10 people go down just in the corner by the museum. There was no red flag but corner workers did NOT have to cross the track to get to the rider/bike, but they were in the impact zone.

Not knowing where the fatality occurred on Friday I can only speculate that it was probably in a location of elevation change that prevented the CW from seeing the oncoming rider and vice versa. I would say that is definitely a situation where a CW should NOT enter a hot track.
__________________
ZX9R
KZ650
ASICS 2000
FZ6
lorin70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2009, 11:35 PM   #15
Myrdok
Dude No Longer With a POS
 
Myrdok's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Pearland
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 1,634

Experience: 4 years

Bike(s):
02 Suz Katana 750 (Sold)
09 CBR600rr








was it to fatalities or just one
__________________
myrdok

She's had 5 kids. You could pound a summer sausage in there with a Peterbilt and still have room to parallel park a Jetta. I'm pretty sure knocking on the tradesman's entrance isn't going to get you sent to the penalty box.
Myrdok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 12:19 AM   #16
lorin70
Senior Member
 
lorin70's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston - ITL
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 359

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+











Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrdok View Post
was it to fatalities or just one
Sadly, it was two.

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=36634
__________________
ZX9R
KZ650
ASICS 2000
FZ6
lorin70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 11:18 AM   #17
n2racing
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 77












the CMRA and most all sanctioning bodies have the corner worker stations linked to race control- who can see or is kept informed by the out riders. the race control will make the red flag decision-not a corner worker. case in point-a couple of years ago a new EMT unit had a member who had never been to a bike roadrace before when she saw her first low side and is calling race control to throw the (red) flag and she also wanted to call the 'bird'. the rider got up and dusted themself off. point race control generally has much more information than anyone else.
Peace, Kevin aka Grumpy CMRA TECH.
n2racing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Advertisement


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:30 PM.


MotoHouston.com is not responsible for the content posted by users.
Privacy Policy