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Old 05-20-2009, 11:41 AM   #1
Grinchy
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Concrete V tar/bitchumen ??

I notice that the two tracks I've visited ie. MSR and TWS (Texas World Speedway) are concrete paved (I think!!) whilst most tracks in Europe are tar/bitchumen!!

what's the difference in feel for those that have ridden on both??
is it grippier or slicker etc??
how about in the wet??
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:02 PM   #2
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I've ridden at a track in Mexico that was Asphalt which I think is the same or very similar to bitumen. My take is that Asphalt is more sticky thatn concrete but then again, I am not that fast nor I have a lot of experience riding in Mexican tracks.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
I notice that the two tracks I've visited ie. MSR and TWS (Texas World Speedway) are concrete paved (I think!!) whilst most tracks in Europe are tar/bitchumen!!

what's the difference in feel for those that have ridden on both??
is it grippier or slicker etc??
how about in the wet??
MSRH has 1 concrete patch in the keyhole, but is asphalt everywhere else. TWS (Texas World Speedway) is all asphalt. A concrete track would have more traction, but would be much much more painful if crashed on.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irak View Post
I've ridden at a track in Mexico that was Asphalt which I think is the same or very similar to bitumen. My take is that Asphalt is more sticky thatn concrete but then again, I am not that fast nor I have a lot of experience riding in Mexican tracks.
thanks for the input Irak
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
MSRH has 1 concrete patch in the keyhole, but is asphalt everywhere else. TWS (Texas World Speedway) is all asphalt. A concrete track would have more traction, but would be much much more painful if crashed on.
I stand corrected if that is the case
Now i would have thought the concrete surface would give less
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
I stand corrected if that is the case
Now i would have thought the concrete surface would give less

Concrete is definetly harder, and doesn't get soggy in the heat. However, the texture is friggin' sandpaper. I could be wrong, but the fastest dragstrips in the country are all concrete (as opposed to a concrete 1/8th with an asphalt 1/8th), and when people street race the try to find a concrete street.....I'm guessing the texture provides much more traction.

However the added traction would DESTROY your leathers in a high speed crash.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:15 PM   #7
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interesting, why would concrete "hurt more"?
btw, is it me or do you feel that asphalt is worse in wet weather, and concrete is better in wet?
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
thanks for the input Irak
NP, now where are my damm oranges
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specterunseen View Post
interesting, why would concrete "hurt more"?
btw, is it me or do you feel that asphalt is worse in wet weather, and concrete is better in wet?

Concrete would hurt more because the coefficient of friction is much higher. Therefore, you'd build up more heat in your leathers as you slid AND would stand a better chance of chewing through. Its because of this that, yes, concrete also has better wet grip.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:48 PM   #10
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IMO, concrete is better in wet. Asphalt is better in dry and more grip than concrete. When you crash on both, both will hurt the same.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Concrete would hurt more because the coefficient of friction is much higher. Therefore, you'd build up more heat in your leathers as you slid AND would stand a better chance of chewing through. Its because of this that, yes, concrete also has better wet grip.
coefficient of friction ? Really. That's interesting, so to put in laymans terms

I have a pallet loaded with weight, on both surfaces.... it would take more effort to get it moving on the concrete? Ie, higher level of friction, thus what would chew threw my leathers...

just a little more, or a LOT more friction?
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specterunseen View Post
coefficient of friction ? Really. That's interesting, so to put in laymans terms

I have a pallet loaded with weight, on both surfaces.... it would take more effort to get it moving on the concrete? Ie, higher level of friction, thus what would chew threw my leathers...
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by specterunseen View Post
just a little more, or a LOT more friction?

This I don't know for sure. It is significant. I found this when searching. These are coefficients of friction. The higher the coefficient the more force it requires to make something slide.

Rubber Asphalt (Dry) 0.5-0.8
Rubber Asphalt (Wet) 0.25-0.75
Rubber Concrete (Dry) 0.6-0.85
Rubber Concrete (Wet) 0.45-0.75


So I guess it really depends on how each is formulated. There's a lot that goes into actually "making" concrete and asphalt. Generally speaking though concrete has more grip than asphalt.

One factor I didn't consider: tire temp. I have absolutely no idea how this factors in.
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Last edited by Chubby Racer; 05-20-2009 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 05-20-2009, 01:01 PM   #13
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Leathers slide. Tires grip at the molecular level. I think textured concrete would provide the highest co-efficient for both leather and rubber, but it is possible the texture would focus the gripping forces on smaller contact areas, leading to much quicker breakdown due to stress and heat forces. In my experience, both grip about the same, but concrete is much more damaging to skin, leathers, plastics, etc... and tire wear is significantly increased on concrete when you ride on the raw edge of traction.
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Old 05-20-2009, 02:20 PM   #14
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cool. i learned something for a change on motohouston.com :-) (can justify to the other half now)
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:33 PM   #15
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thanks for the input guys
exactly the opposite of what i believed so I've learnt something new too
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:47 PM   #16
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You guys are wrong if you think concrete would grip better than grainy asphalt. Dragstrips have rubber and VHT to help with traction. Sharp asphalt will bite into the rubber of a tire like teeth and hold where concrete would pretty much be surface tension alone. I have street ridden aggressively on both and concrete only works well when it is new. It will polish with tire friction and become slippery. It would be terrible for road coarses because of having expansion joints every so many feet and the aggregate polishing in the turns. Notice how a lot of concrete roadway is asphalted over after ground smooth? The co-efficient gets thrown out the window when a rolling free suspended tire is put to the surface.
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Old 05-20-2009, 04:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specterunseen View Post
coefficient of friction ? Really. That's interesting, so to put in laymans terms

I have a pallet loaded with weight, on both surfaces.... it would take more effort to get it moving on the concrete? Ie, higher level of friction, thus what would chew threw my leathers...

just a little more, or a LOT more friction?
Look at it like this.. Your pallet is made out of a soft wood(tire). Moving it on smooth concrete would be easier than sharp asphalt that has embedded into the soft wood. If your pallet was steel, then whichever gave the most surface friction(concrete) would be harder to move it on.

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Old 05-20-2009, 05:02 PM   #18
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My general rule for ashpalt roads is: If the gravel is round you will go down. If the gravel is sharp make sparks.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasakijockey View Post
You guys are wrong if you think concrete would grip better than grainy asphalt. Dragstrips have rubber and VHT to help with traction. Sharp asphalt will bite into the rubber of a tire like teeth and hold where concrete would pretty much be surface tension alone. I have street ridden aggressively on both and concrete only works well when it is new. It will polish with tire friction and become slippery. It would be terrible for road coarses because of having expansion joints every so many feet and the aggregate polishing in the turns. Notice how a lot of concrete roadway is asphalted over after ground smooth? The co-efficient gets thrown out the window when a rolling free suspended tire is put to the surface.
appreciate the input
a different take altogether ,
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Old 05-21-2009, 07:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawasakijockey View Post
You guys are wrong if you think concrete would grip better than grainy asphalt. Dragstrips have rubber and VHT to help with traction. Sharp asphalt will bite into the rubber of a tire like teeth and hold where concrete would pretty much be surface tension alone. I have street ridden aggressively on both and concrete only works well when it is new. It will polish with tire friction and become slippery. It would be terrible for road coarses because of having expansion joints every so many feet and the aggregate polishing in the turns. Notice how a lot of concrete roadway is asphalted over after ground smooth? The co-efficient gets thrown out the window when a rolling free suspended tire is put to the surface.
In conclusion: it all depends on age and composition. However, I have to question at least one point you made: that concrete is only sticky because of VHT and rubber. You don't think that rubber is a factor on asphalt as well?

Also, where are you finding "rough/grainy" asphalt? Certainly not at either TWS (Texas World Speedway) or MSRH.
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