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Old 05-08-2009, 09:32 AM   #41
cyrick21
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I have always rolled off the throttle a little bit and leaned harder and looked deeper into the turn, and then just prayed for the best...

If I remember correctly during my first or second track day I was told that you can control your line through the corner using your throttle. (reduce the throttle will tighten your line, and increasing throttle will widen your line). Is that any different than what is being discussed here?

I also found this article that also says the same thing.

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_0...tle/index.html
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Racer997 View Post
I ain't that guy, Curt. But you have met me, twice, in fact, and interviewed me once. I even introduced myself to you. I'm just a guy, I'm not memorable, but if you can't remember meeting someone on two separate occassions, I don't expect you to understand other things.
Yes, we've met. Most recently at MSR-H. However, I don't know what you are thinking about when you say "interviewed"; I assure you that I've never interviewed anybody with a camera or for an article.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:35 AM   #43
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I have always rolled off the throttle a little bit and leaned harder and looked deeper into the turn, and then just prayed for the best...

If I remember correctly during my first or second track day I was told that you can control your line through the corner using your throttle. (reduce the throttle will tighten your line, and increasing throttle will widen your line). Is that any different than what is being discussed here?

I also found this article that also says the same thing.

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_0...tle/index.html
Oh heck, what does Andy Trevitt know? Obviously he lacks the natural talent to defy the laws of physics.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:39 AM   #44
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Yes, we've met. Most recently at MSR-H. However, I don't know what you are thinking about when you say "interviewed"; I assure you that I've never interviewed anybody with a camera or for an article.
I am being a bit facitious, Curt. You "interviewed" via PM on Halloween night. You wanted to know who I was, who I knew, what my qualifications were, if I was faster than Ty Howard, Larry Meyers and Valentino Rossi. You even asked me if my screen name was derived from the car world, a la Porsche 997. I felt honored that you cared so much about me to take the time.

I like to think that physics can explain everything. I know you're an engineer, as am I, so next time we meet, I'd like to continue this discussion. It should be fun.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:41 AM   #45
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Oh heck, what does Andy Trevitt know? Obviously he lacks the natural talent to defy the laws of physics.
leave him alone meanie! At least you can still ride
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:43 AM   #46
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leave him alone meanie! At least you can still ride
Oh man, that accident was awful. I've not seen an update on Andy for a couple of months. I wonder how he's doing; it sounded as if he'd never walk again.
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Old 05-08-2009, 09:44 AM   #47
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keep looking where I want to go and add a bit more gas.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:06 AM   #48
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So with all the engineers with BS degrees on here no one uses their training to explain?
1) If rolling on the throttle decreases the radius of turn it will be due to the follow. Newton: objects in motion tend to stay in motion -> The bike wants to go in a straight line but is leaning, the lean combined with gravity imparts a lateral force which accelerates the bike towards the center of the curve (duh everyone knows that). Then Oh : the realization that you are running too wide hits and you follow the given advice and add throttle. This creates more force. The force is applied away from the center of mass and on the outside of the curvature creating a torque arm. This torque arm will tend to pivot the bike toward a tighter turn radius - problem solved.

2) The above does not negate the other advice of deceleration:
Same Newton. Limited force/traction available from the tires. A certain amount of force is used to accelerate toward the center of the curve based on the equation of Force = (Mass*Velocity^2)/Radius. so if you can scrub off velocity it will affect the force required for a given radius by a square of the velocity difference. Since there will still be the torque change from affect described in 1) everyone seems to advise smooth deceleration as this will minimize the affect of the 1) forces. Problem solved.

As a newb and non track rider the above is only from physics background and should be taken with a grain of salt. Since I am planning on changing my non track status does the above sound correct?
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:07 AM   #49
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It depends on how far over you already are when you decide you are running wide. Like has been said, bikes will turn a lot better than people think. But if you are at 10/10ths on the track at max lean, and realize you are running wide, it's too late.

Chopping the throttle can help tighten the line, but also puts more weight on the front tire.. which may already be at the 110% point of traction.

If you are asking about running wide when you get back on the gas, then you can roll off slightly.. and we are talking "slight" just like a degree or so

Or, last resort, hammer the gas and get the back end to come around and just drift it out.. that's how the old guys did it back in the day (80's)
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:15 AM   #50
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From the SportRider article that Cyrick posted...

"In the real world for riders who ride with their wheels always aligned, the smooth use of the throttle while banked into a corner is an indispensible tool in precisely adjusting your line through a corner. Your bike's trajectory or curved path through a corner is primarily determined by two factors: your speed and your lean angle. Increasing lean angle quite obviously tightens your cornering line while increasing your speed has the opposite effect. In other words, once you've set your lean angle you can tighten your line by simply reducing your speed or widen your cornering arc by increasing it; without ever changing your lean angle. Keeping your engine rpm between 60 and 80 percent of redline also enhances its throttle response, though the higher rpm also demands greater smoothness."
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:26 AM   #51
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The key words being "for those who ride with their wheels always aligned"

Me I set my throttle just enough to maintain my entry speed and fine tune my angle and lines with the bars. Even when getting back on the gas if I need to change the line I use the bars.. but again, if you are already flirting with the limits of traction more steering input can be the straw...

The main trick I see from myself and others is the brain. Once you decide "oh I am running wide" you tend to look and that's where you are going. The true racers I have spoke with usually say something like "I was in the grass before I realized" since they are looking down the track where they wanted to go.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:36 AM   #52
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i dont know much but I think the laws of physics say that an object pushes on earth (the track or whatever) and that the earth pushes back. So if I have my lean angle set and smoothly and consistently roll on the throttle which transfers weight to the rear tire increasing my contact with the track pushing harder against the earth would it not push back with more force? So with out changing my lean angle would I not make it thru the corner? That would certainly tighten my turn radius. again i am still working on my degree so i am clueless but it seems to make sense in my pea-sized brain.

oh dont look at my sig u prolly wont agree with that either
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:42 AM   #53
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Quote:
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What is your first move? 2nd? 3rd? Is it a combination of things?
Turn harder! Trust your tire and lean into it, if I detect it early Ill stand it up and throw another apex into the turn which works but you'll have very little time so you better be real comfy goin into your max lean turn in less than 1 second.
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Old 05-08-2009, 10:57 AM   #54
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Quote:
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To be clear the discussions isn't whether it's better to apply a little more throttle or CHOP the throttle; chopping the throttle is obviously not a good idea because of the wild impact to a fully loaded suspension.

The discussion is what do you do if you are running wide in a turn. Lins has suggested that you give it more throttle. I'm keenly interested in an explanation of why that is better than slightly rolling off the throttle. The subject is an average advanced level track rider.
Ok this is the ideaÖ
Giving more throttle works as it breaks the rear loose just enough to power steer the bike (pointing the bike to the inside of the turn), however, this works well only if you are already close to the traction limit of the tire; otherwise the amount power necessary to do the job can well result in a high side. Not a recommended way for a average track rider at all I should say ( unless you are planning to wake up with a bright light in your eyes and an strange voice asking what time of the day it is).

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Old 05-08-2009, 11:19 AM   #55
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Here's the 100% correct answer.

I depends on the bike and depends on the track and depends on what part of the turn you are in and depends on what type of turn it is.

Now shutup and ride.

But whatever you decide, either more gas or less, do it gently.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:22 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidermonkey View Post
Ok this is the ideaÖ
Giving more throttle works as it breaks the rear loose just enough to power steer the bike (pointing the bike to the inside of the turn), however, this works well only if you are already close to the traction limit of the tire; otherwise the amount power necessary to do the job can well result in a high side. Not a recommended way for a average track rider at all I should say ( unless you are planning to wake up with a bright light in your eyes and an strange voice asking what time of the day it is).

SM

There are other ways as well to steer with the rear, on corner entry you will or should know if youve blown it. On the very begining of your entry you can modulate the rear break to "back" the bike into the corner effectively decreasing your area of desired turn which will bring you back on line BUT this is an extremly advanced technique which when tried your first couple times may end up in a high side with the usual questions being asked as spider monkey poited out.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:27 AM   #57
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Quote:
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Here's the 100% correct answer.

I depends on the bike and depends on the track and depends on what part of the turn you are in and depends on what type of turn it is.

But whatever you decide, either more gas or less, do it gently.
Bingo, we have a winner! Way too many variables for ONE definitative answer.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:28 AM   #58
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Quote:
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If I'm really hot I stick my leg out which is just a reaction from my motocross days. Grrrr
Iíve caught myself doing that once or twice too and as soon as I did it Iím likeÖ.WTF?

I hold the throttle steady, donít add brakes and lean the out of it. Iíve reduced my runoffs by 90% from when I started. Part by remaining calm, focused and knowing I donít HAVE to run off here. But mostly by improving other aspects of my riding and not getting into that situation as often.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:36 AM   #59
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And still none of the engineers have factored in fork travel, the throttles effect on fork travel, change in rake and trail due to fork position and the difference in radius arc determined by varying rake and trail.
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:09 PM   #60
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lots of people giving bad advice in here.....i'd hate to quote them all and call them out.....but yeah, just hit the track and ride.....sooner or later, you will find out what works.

R&T (keith) had the best answer.
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