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Old 03-13-2009, 10:22 AM   #81
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Just as a topic of discussion,
by far and away the most successful trackday org in the UK operates a strict passing policy amongst other things on general public trackdays.

If a rider passes another close enough to sit them up or make them change line they will be blackflagged and warned once.
Marshals and instructors watch for it.
Do it a second time and you're out of there,
no more track time, no refund, goodbye.

This is not applied on ACU "race" practice days or if there is a "race" group for race licence holders!!

Lap Timers are prohibited too FYI
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:48 AM   #82
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I'm bringing two buddies with me on the 29th and I'm making sure we all attend the rider meetings. Just wanted to throw that in there.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:49 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Just as a topic of discussion,
by far and away the most successful trackday org in the UK operates a strict passing policy amongst other things on general public trackdays.

If a rider passes another close enough to sit them up or make them change line they will be blackflagged and warned once.
Marshals and instructors watch for it.
Do it a second time and you're out of there,
no more track time, no refund, goodbye.

This is not applied on ACU "race" practice days or if there is a "race" group for race licence holders!!

Lap Timers are prohibited too FYI

It's the same here, IF you are caught.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:50 AM   #84
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People attend meetings doesn't mean they listen, IMO.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:54 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level5 View Post
Things like this happens because it's the nature of the game. It may have been avoided but make mistakes and happens.
The problem is not when you make mistakes and pay for it personally....it's when you make mistakes and the others around you pay for it! Especially when these mistakes result from not following specific rules which are discussed in class
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:56 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level5 View Post
People attend meetings doesn't mean they listen, IMO.
Can't argue with you on that one. I was simply throwing in a positive note on this gloomy post. thanks for your input.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:08 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubby View Post
The problem is not when you make mistakes and pay for it personally....it's when you make mistakes and the others around you pay for it! Especially when these mistakes result from not following specific rules which are discussed in class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave C View Post
this atleast ensures that the org did their part in telling the rules. No one knows if the riders that caused the accidents even showed up. not to say this will prevent all accidents but it certainly wont hurt. if the person is pulled aside later for their actions they can't say they didn't know because well they were told.



my mistake. I misunderstood

that is an awesome idea.
According to my knowledge, there has always been are rider's meeting but we get threads like this every year.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:18 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Just as a topic of discussion,
by far and away the most successful trackday org in the UK operates a strict passing policy amongst other things on general public trackdays.

If a rider passes another close enough to sit them up or make them change line they will be blackflagged and warned once.
Marshals and instructors watch for it.
Do it a second time and you're out of there,
no more track time, no refund, goodbye.


This is not applied on ACU "race" practice days or if there is a "race" group for race licence holders!!

Lap Timers are prohibited too FYI
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:34 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave C View Post
of course there has been a riders meeting. can't prove all the riders attend. that is just one suggestion. No one and nothing is perfect but I feel confident changes will be made to reach out and stress the importance of rules and safety tryign to get EVERYONE to attend.

and again it could be very well the rider attended the meeting and just did not listen. who knows. i think we could go back and forth on this all day long. It is obvious by dhdriders post that they are talking and working on making things even more safe. hats off to them for that
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:42 AM   #90
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Ok then..

I signed up for the 29th, 1st time track and regurdless of how good, or how cautious I think I am on the srteet I told CDill Novice for me no matter what. I wanna start from the bottom up. I hope novice is as laid back that I am thinking. I just wanna ride learn and enojoy myself...possibly meet some chics.
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:47 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candie View Post
From what I have read about both incidents that happened on that day were not the fault of Ride Smart but of the riders that chose NOT to attend the classroom sessions. In doing so the riders did not know the rules of passing on the inside. They have classroom sessions for a reason and if you sign up with Ride Smart knowing this the you should attend classes not only for yourself but for the others riders on the track. I don't see how the track being " crowded" had anything to do with either accident. IMOH
Maybe they should take roll call to make sure all the noobs are present?
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:49 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solracer View Post
+1 I think the "mandatory" rider meetings should actually be "mandatory"
Like CMRA does, calls a few random names, if you are not there.....
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Old 03-13-2009, 02:55 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Just as a topic of discussion,
by far and away the most successful trackday org in the UK operates a strict passing policy amongst other things on general public trackdays.

If a rider passes another close enough to sit them up or make them change line they will be blackflagged and warned once.
Marshals and instructors watch for it.
Do it a second time and you're out of there,
no more track time, no refund, goodbye.

This is not applied on ACU "race" practice days or if there is a "race" group for race licence holders!!

Lap Timers are prohibited too FYI
Why is that?



And....what is a lap timer?
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Old 03-13-2009, 03:08 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunshotwound View Post
Maybe they should take roll call to make sure all the noobs are present?
I think that would be a great idea. The riders meeting is for all levels with basic info. That is mainly for riders that are frequent trackday riders that may be new to the org or particular track. What I was referring to is the classroom portion of the day that happens after every on track session that are generally held in the novice and intermediate groups or level 1 & 2 depending on which org you are riding with. These two groups have different passing rules and the staff members have much more detailed information for those riders. So everyone needs to be at the general riders meetings but more importantly the novice and intermediate riders need to attend every classroom portion of the day. So a roll call would be an excellent way to see who is attending class.
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Old 03-13-2009, 04:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunshotwound View Post
Why is that?



And....what is a lap timer?
their argument was to quote,
"this is neither a race or a time trial and therefore timers are not required or permitted"
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
Adopt the UK system.
Rider briefing is mandatory,
at the end of the briefing you collect a wristband (different colour for each event),
as you line up to go out onto the track a steward/marshall checks you have a wristband.
No wristband = no ride, simple
these checks occur throughout the day.
Sounds like a pretty good one to me.

I will say these threads are making me nervous about my first trackday on 4-25 at msrh :/
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:21 PM   #97
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Quote:
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I will say these threads are making me nervous about my first trackday on 4-25 at msrh :/
Once you leave the first rider's meeting you may feel the same way. They talk about dont do this and don't do that. People usually crash here and people usually crash here. In their defense, they see the same things happen time and time again so they have to point out the mistakes that rider's continually make.

I told one of the instructors that after leaving the first meeting, It didn't make me very confident going out on the track. I said there should be a positive note on the end of the sessions. That way rider's leave with a sense of confidence.
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:35 PM   #98
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Quote:
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Sounds like a pretty good one to me.

I will say these threads are making me nervous about my first trackday on 4-25 at msrh :/

I wouldn't worry about it. You have a greater chance of getting hit in your neighborhood than something like this incident happening again. IMO.
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Old 03-13-2009, 06:20 PM   #99
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I was just reminded I must make this post short, exceeded maximum by 4 times the max, so I am making this a multi part post.


PART 1:

As DHDrider said, we have been monitoring this thread and I am sure many reps from all other orgs are too. Feedback from here is very useful for all of our organizations.

There is a lot of good information here. I will try to address each post I thought would need addressing. So bear with me here.

I truly hope you do get a very speedy and easy recovery. No matter what anyone says to you now, you are still hurt and still have suffered pain and the aggravation associated with such a crash.

First and foremost, I will be placing a thread in the Ride Smart section. That thread will try to solicit information from anyone who may have seen the crash.
We are very interested in finding out who did this. I do too consider it a very low thing not to at least get off the track and say, hey it was me that crashed into him and I sincerely apologize.
For not doing this, you - who have caused this crash - are not an honest and responsible as a human being. I hope your conscience bears down on you. You should at least stand up and take the responsibility for this. He is hurt, has to replace a bunch of equipment, and you just ride off knowing that you have injured someone, possibly severely, and do not even check to see what happened. That is plain low on your side, whoever you are.
We expect you will at least call us to let us know that you have done this and to let us know your side of the story. Yes, accidents do happen, but if one causes it, they act like a normal compassionate human should do, take responsibility. I call on you to do your part as a person, admit to what you did.

Now moving on to my responses (they will be in blue to distinguish them from quotes):



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigComfy View Post
Can we try to not turn this into a contest about various orgs and just thank the man for his post?

TY sir.


Very correct. This input will be best served to all organizations, and is something that can and does occur at other organizations. Lets keep this unbiased. Thanks.




Quote:
Originally Posted by alrova View Post
+1,

we ALL now that some riders/tools lie about skill level just because their homie is in a different level. I am not saying this was the case, but my point is, for Track Organizations it is hard to tell if you are new UNTIL a few laps, sometimes you can catch them fast sometimes it takes longer.

Absolutely true. We would have to have a lie detector test to find out if someone actually rides in a level that they belong to. Keep in mind, you, as a customer are morally obligated to provide us with truthful information when you sign up. As many other posters have indicated, starting everyone in level 1 will not work for many reasons. I will give you a great example of this.
Last year, we had a racer that invited some friends to ride at the track day. Him being a racer, knew the track. His friends were level 1 people. He registered as a level 1 rider. He WAS TOLD that he MUST ride in line with level 1 riders (no lev 4 riding). Guess what happened. He ended up being the only crash in group 1. Why? Because he was a racer. Wanted to get to the turn before the slower riders do, ended up setting up for the corner way too late, and low sided. No one was hurt, but this brings out the fact that when you register everyone in level 1 to start out with, you will end up having a riding group where the riding capacity has a tremendous disparity.
That is why all organizations rely on your good judgment to provide us with truthful information about your riding capabilities.
This is no joke. There is nothing wrong with being a level 1 rider. Everyone starts somewhere. So for the future, just sign up for where you believe you fit. If you are not sure, sign up for one lower group then you think, especially if you are not very familiar with the track.

It all comes down to personal responsibility. Be responsible for your actions, as they will affect others on the track. Remember that a track day is not a race day. It is designed to be a time and place where you ride well below your capability, and work on improving your technique. Rushing corners will not get you a trophy. Be a responsible rider.
All rider orgs, including Ride Smart have instructors, corner workers, and other people who scan for riders who do not belong to the group they are in. With this happening so early in the day, it could have happened at 40mph, and I am sure it did not only because round robin disallows ANY passing at all.
Again, this could have happened in any level, so this is proof that no matter which group you are in, be aware of your surroundings and do not bunch up. What this means is try not to speed up to outpace others. They will try to match you and you will all ride in one big fast moving group. Slow down, let them pass. They will pass and you will have the whole track open for yourself, by yourself. This is your time to work on improvement, not on trying to outpace another rider (especially one whose capabilities you probably have no idea of).




Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfuller View Post
so trackday orgs don't keep a record of who has ridden with them?
Track day orgs do keep track of who rides with them, but this information is not compared at the track. Keep in mind, the person who pays for a track day is not always the same as the person that is riding the track day. There are many people buying gifts, or using wife's cc to register, the example list can go on and on. It would be very inefficient to cross correlate all riders to see how many times they actually rode in which group before handing them check in paperwork and teching their bikes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
There are actually a few problems with what you suggest. I'll post them......others can agree or disagree.

1. Policing who has and hasn't ridden the track to determine who needs to be in the novice group.
Agree. As stated above, good idea, but very elusive when in comes to implementation. Other methods can mitigate this to a very low risk factor. Once again, all participants are expected to be wise and cautious in their riding. Until we see someone act in a way, we can't tell what they can or cannot do, and sometimes it only takes one action before a crash occurs. This may have been one of those, the rider may have been behaving fine the first few laps, and just target fixated and here we are. We do not really know what was going on in his head (and we are very eager to find out). Summarizing, safety starts with each of us. We should ensure we do things safely ourselves, then worry about others. Unfortunately some were not raised properly by their parents (what other reasons are there for ignorant behavior like this?)


2. Pace. I've never ridden with Ride Smart. If they were to activate a rule like you're suggesting I'd be stuck in the novice group. My pace (and others WAY faster than me) would scare the bejesus out of much slower riders possibly causing more wrecks than it prevents.

Agree too. As in the example I provided, making a racer or advanced rider go into level 1 to start the day with makes the group one with huge capability differences in riders. That is a sure way to get bad results.
Most crashing does not happen in level 1, or level 4. Most crashing happens in level 2 because this is a group that has the widest differences in skill (from those who belong in lev 4 but have no intentions on rubbing elbows with racers, to those who have just graduated from level 1 and are now in the 'big boys' group as they see it). Keeping rider skills similar helps. This boils down once again to rider responsibility. Unfortunately we cannot make someone be responsible. We can only act after they do something, but that may not prevent an event from happening.



3. The round robin groups are fairly paced anyway. Its entirely likely that if he hadn't tagged you in intermediate he might have done the same to someone else in Novice.

Yes. This is not because he did not belong in level 2. We do not know why he did it. Assuming he did not want to crash into him, he may have target fixated, or maybe the other rider was taking the turn really deep and had to lean the bike quick, making the other person crash....who knows. I was not there to see it, and I do not see anyone stepping up saying what happened. All we can say, he crashed into another person. We are trying to find out who it was to complete the picture. Only then we can reconstruct what went on. Once again, had he been responsible for his actions he would not have been riding in such ways. Had he target fixated (which happens to even most experienced track riders sometime), we would at least expect him to come forth. His lack of ethics may be an indicator of the type of person he is, but we don't really know.
Message to take out: During track days, no one wins anything. Do not ride over your head. Use the time to practice for yourself, not to show off.
In case you are not sure, riding over your head is when you experience those OMG moments. Generally if you ride over 80% of your capability at a track day, you are going too fast to be learning. Level 4 is for race/open session. Everything else should not be going all out. At that speed, all you will get is panic management.




TBC...
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Old 03-13-2009, 06:22 PM   #100
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PART 2:


Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
This happened in the first "open" session. Is there any way to know this before then?

Secondly, I paid my money just like everyone else. Why should I have to waste sessions riding with my elbow on the tank just so I don't scare other riders? This is why they have multiple levels, and a good reason to NOT start everyone in novice.

I assume no one knew this would happen, or I can assure you he would have been spotted and flagged. Ride Smart corner workers are given explicit instructions via email and at the track about what to do. We expect that each of them treat the the spot as a job (which it is - you get compensated by getting a free track day). Trust me, no matter what happens, we are going to impress on all corner workers what their job is to be at any track event they attend.



Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
In OK there's exactly 1 track, and only one trackday org: the racetrack itself. So they can (and do) pull this off. However, being that there's 4 trackday orgs that operate in Houston, and multiple tracks, there's no way to prove or disprove where someone belongs until you see them ride.

Having A level riders riding with C level riders is either dangerous to C level riders, or a complete waste of a session to A level riders.
We are in agreement for various reasons here as stated above.
That is why responsibility starts with the riders upon registration. We can and do observe riders and adjust accordingly, but until we see something, we can't really take actions (other than education - which is being done). We will continue to make improvements and hope this does not recur.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I am in awe that the idiot did not fess up and apologize. I would feel TERRIBLE if I had hurt someone, through noone's fault by my own. I would feel morally obligated to try to make it right as best I could.

What a POS.

And I agree, all first time riders should start in novice, even if is only for a few sessions. Then be evaluated and bumped. But, if I am a real tool, I can lie and sign up for whatever session I want. With all the orgs and tracks, noone would know until they saw me ride. Perhaps by that time, it would be too late.

Bingo on this one...we can and do the best we can to manage and match riders to groups. However all one has to do is lie (and we know no one lies ). Until we actually see riders on the track, all we have is speculation. When the rubber meets the pavement, that is when we will have real observations, and we do take action once someone is identified.
Be responsible for yourself, do not try to kid yourself about your capabilities.
If someone was looking for people to climb K2, I am sure there would be enough people who say they can and will do it, but it does not mean any of them can. Not until you see them climb with you, will you have a chance to observe and act on their demonstration of skill.



Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Ummm.....obviously. What I was trying to say is that if Ride Smart wanted to make this rule that'd have to put everyone that has never ridden with THEM into novice to ensure they captured everyone. Read under my avatar: I have 10+ days. I'm anything but a novice, but I have never ridden with Ride Smart. It would be either

a. scary for me to ride in novice because of my pace (and i'm sure there are WAY faster guys that have never ridden with Ride Smart)

b. a waste of my money and disincentive to ride with Ride Smart.



Read my other posts to: Hallett does this, but thats because they'rethe only racetrack in OK and they run the days THEMSELVES.........with paid cornerworkers......so they can make sure to capture all novice riders, and faster guys get bumped accordingly. The only exception to Hallett's rule is you can get out of novice your first time if you have a current race license.

However, the situation in Houston is obviously different: more tracks, more orgs, no permanent paid cornerworkers so making a rule like this is nearly impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomAss View Post
+1

Just like with everything you have the bad apples who makes the majority look bad. This could have happened with any track day organization. It's an honor system and it's up to those who sign up to be as forthright as possible. Catching someone in the second session of the day would be impossible since the first session is spent showing the track and the lines at a reduced pace.

Paid corner workers are always an advantage. Most organizations rely on volunteers or they would not be able to stage track days. We all do our best with what we have. A crash like this could have happened there too. Imagine the same registering for level 1 since he is forced to. goes through first session, and on second session decides to ride much faster because he has all this new confidence after the round robin. Same thing could have resulted, and depending where on the track it happens, corner workers (even the paid ones) may not be able to tell who did it (corner workers are not placed at every corner - they often scan the area near them and communicate to thers via radio).



Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomAss View Post
Wrecks don't happen in the novice group.


Although I assume this is a sarcastic comment, I will answer with a straight face
Majority of wrecks happen in group 2 or the intermediate level because of the disparity of rider skills (all the way from advanced who does not feel up to very aggressive riding all the way to the first time in intermediate group rider, who thinks he just graduated to the fast lane and wants to prove something). Level 1 novice is actually one of the least crashing groups, probably because people are more intimidated by the track experience, and because they use more caution when riding. Level 4 could go either way, depending on who attends.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lbjasonc View Post
i know ur frustration as i also went down during the 2nd session. i've gotten my opinion heard and dealt with. i, like u was ridin what we were told was a "round rodin" lap and others were instructed to "have at it" if u will. the reason i went down is all similar to ur accident. i had riders on both my left and right side turning in the diamonds edge, thus causing me to lowside. i'll leave off with this though, ridesmart as a whole is a great group of intelligent and helpful people led by a standup guy (dave wonders)

hope u heal fast bro

I am not quite sure how the 'and others were instructed to "have at it" if u will' relates here. Even though I have not attended this particular event, I have instructed in many events and never do we tell any of the riders to 'have at it during a round robin'. As a matter of fact, we never tell anyone to have at it at all in any session. What is preached and taught, is that everyone should ride in control, well below their maximum, and never to have at it, because this is how crashes happen.
We do a good job with making it very apparent that if you do not ride responsibly, you or others may suffer for it. We hope it sinks in, but since this is a school, we have not found a way to guarantee that someone is listening and actually taking the information to heart. We do not believe in labor camps, so I do not foresee us keeping you all there overnight or until we see you ride in a specific way. Said it many times before, responsibility and safety starts with each rider. Sometimes a bonehead will make others pay for their mistakes. Unfortunate, but life is not fair to everyone. I have learned to deal with that fact. I hope your get off was not a bad one, and hope that you can pm us with any info about the incident as well.
Thank you.



...TBC...
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