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View Poll Results: GP Shift pattern
Dont need it 63 55.75%
I have it and hate it 0 0%
I have it and LOVE it! Its a must! 50 44.25%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-28-2008, 05:29 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
Care to be more technical? The engagement mechanism and action are IDENTICAL upshifting and downshifting. The only difference MIGHT be the amount of torque applied to the engagement dogs at the moment of engagement.
On a clutchless upshift, the engine will be turning fewer rpms at the completion of the shift. Therefore unloading the trans by letting off the throttle lets the trans shift and the motor is more easily able to slow down to the appropriate RPM.

On a clutchless downshift, the engine will be turning higher rpms at the completion of the shift. Attempting to unload the trans by letting off the throttle further exacerbates this condition. So the engine has to speed up at the completion of the shift thus it's less likely to be smooth and more likely to cause damage.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:30 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooligan View Post
haha Curt


im just going to take your bike around MSRH and see if I like it or not........
I took it around, reverse shift. It was cool. My thoughts were.....

"Coming on the back straight, up. no wait, down, yea that's it, down, down down. Diamonds edge, down. No wait, up, yea that's it, up, up. Now, down, yea...I got this...down down...This is ez....Carousel, down, gawd dammit! It's up! , now I gotta go up 2! !"

What I like better was the quick shifter.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
The person I was quoting stated that they used the clutch for every single shift (down AND up), every time, without fail, and would NOT do otherwise. If you clutched every single shift you ever did out on the track it'd definetly cost you more than a hundredth. I'd wager that it'd cost you a hundreth of a second every upshift. I'm pretty sure most people shift at least 10 times on a typical lap at TWS (Texas World Speedway).
When I get back home tonight, I'll look through my G2X data to see if I can laps where I was using the clutch back in December and January. My guess it that it's a helluva lot more than 1/100th of a second. More like 5/100's to 1/10 of a second per shift. That adds up quickly.

The data with the quick shifter clearly shows no delay.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:33 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
The person I was quoting stated that they used the clutch for every single shift (down AND up), every time, without fail, and would NOT do otherwise. If you clutched every single shift you ever did out on the track it'd definetly cost you more than a hundredth. I'd wager that it'd cost you a hundreth of a second every upshift. I'm pretty sure most people shift at least 10 times on a typical lap at TWS (Texas World Speedway).
You would probably lose that bet. The only reason I use the clutch is for down shifting (as do so many other racers, pro and amateur) and I would use the clutch up shifting too if I didn't have a quick shifter.

I'd bet that you wouldn't lose a hundredth of a second using the clutch all the way around the track for the whole lap, let alone on each up or down shift.

Unless you are racing bar to bar with someone on the last straight, not using the clutch is not going to yield any measurable result. More times than not, races are won/ lost coming in to, coming out of, or with more in corner speed, not with shifting.

Besides, to take a chance at a poor engagement without using the clutch and possibly breaking something vital is pretty silly, especially if you're only doing a track day or practicing
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:34 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
I took it around, reverse shift. It was cool. My thoughts were.....

"Coming on the back straight, up. no wait, down, yea that's it, down, down down. Diamonds edge, down. No wait, up, yea that's it, up, up. Now, down, yea...I got this...down down...This is ez....Carousel, down, gawd dammit! It's up! , now I gotta go up 2! !"

What I like better was the quick shifter.


That mental picture is funny....
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:37 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
When I get back home tonight, I'll look through my G2X data to see if I can laps where I was using the clutch back in December and January. My guess it that it's a helluva lot more than 1/100th of a second. More like 5/100's to 1/10 of a second per shift. That adds up quickly.

The data with the quick shifter clearly shows no delay.
Curt, that was almost a year ago and you've had a ton of seat time since then. A better comparison would be to have your data compared from the same day of different shift styles. Even then, I'd question the validity because someone who uses the clutch up and down (without a quick shifter) vs someone who doesn't is going to have the factor of comfort with the procedure; whereas you'll be trying something different than you're used to.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:56 PM   #67
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OK so clutchless upshifting I will work on, but clutchless downshifting seams horrible for your transmission (its not up for discussion) so I will not be practicing that
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:34 PM   #68
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blipping the throttle on a clutchless downshift
WTF?????
this i gotta see.....
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:53 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
You would probably lose that bet. The only reason I use the clutch is for down shifting (as do so many other racers, pro and amateur) and I would use the clutch up shifting too if I didn't have a quick shifter.

I'd bet that you wouldn't lose a hundredth of a second using the clutch all the way around the track for the whole lap, let alone on each up or down shift.

Unless you are racing bar to bar with someone on the last straight, not using the clutch is not going to yield any measurable result. More times than not, races are won/ lost coming in to, coming out of, or with more in corner speed, not with shifting.

Besides, to take a chance at a poor engagement without using the clutch and possibly breaking something vital is pretty silly, especially if you're only doing a track day or practicing
I'd take that bet. I have the equipment to check it.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:18 PM   #70
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i'd bet it's worth at least half a second at TWS (Texas World Speedway) that clutchless upshifting will gain over using the clutch to shift
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:21 PM   #71
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3 tenths
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
blipping the throttle on a clutchless downshift
WTF?????
this i gotta see.....
I do this EVERY time I ride... my bike is fine.

I do it both going up and down.

Id worry if I had an older r6 or a 636.

for those who want, you can watch me do it ALL DAY on sat at msr...

edit, I also do it on the 500r, 14k and no problems yet...

about the same ont he cbr and no problems...
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:07 PM   #73
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I have always used standard shift but will probably give gp shift a try here in a short while (once i can get a sticker for the tripple to remind me).

Same as chris and others, I clutchless shift all the time, both up and down. I may or may not ride with no hands and have to clutchless downshift for lights..... Really the only time I use the clutch is starting/stopping and probably 80% of the time on the 1-2 shift change, either direction, just because it wants to stick in neutral sometimes. Its all about throttle.

edit: and I have a combined 20K riding and no trans problems to date (knock on wood).
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:54 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solracer View Post
I do this EVERY time I ride... my bike is fine.

I do it both going up and down.

Id worry if I had an older r6 or a 636.

for those who want, you can watch me do it ALL DAY on sat at msr...

edit, I also do it on the 500r, 14k and no problems yet...

about the same ont he cbr and no problems...
I just can't get my head around that Chris,
guess I'll have to come by msr and see it for myself.
just so it's not a "translation" poblem, this article is my definition of blipping the throttle on a clutch assisted downshift.
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/rss/1...tle/index.html

now you're saying you blip the throttle and execute a downshift without using the clutch!!!!! on the road and on the track!!
surely the bike would lurch forward each time you blipped, without the clutch disengaging the drive??
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:34 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
On a clutchless upshift, the engine will be turning fewer rpms at the completion of the shift. Therefore unloading the trans by letting off the throttle lets the trans shift and the motor is more easily able to slow down to the appropriate RPM.

On a clutchless downshift, the engine will be turning higher rpms at the completion of the shift. Attempting to unload the trans by letting off the throttle further exacerbates this condition. So the engine has to speed up at the completion of the shift thus it's less likely to be smooth and more likely to cause damage.
Basically, you have to overcome the rotational inertia of the motor going in both directions. The only difference is on a downshift you have to contend with compression as well. I'd never use clutchless downshifting on a track, but a properly timed clutchless downshift on the street is only slightly more forceful than a clutchless upshift, especially on a smaller displacement bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post

Besides, to take a chance at a poor engagement without using the clutch and possibly breaking something vital is pretty silly, especially if you're only doing a track day or practicing
You do realize that a motorcycle uses what is commonly referred to as a "crashbox" right? This means that using the clutch in between gears does NOTHING to increase the likelyhood of a successful shift. All it does is unload the collar such that you're not having to fight against friction. Killing the ignition (what a quick shifter does) and slightly rolling off accomplish the same thing.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:57 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grinchy View Post
I just can't get my head around that Chris,
guess I'll have to come by msr and see it for myself.
just so it's not a "translation" poblem, this article is my definition of blipping the throttle on a clutch assisted downshift.
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/rss/1...tle/index.html

now you're saying you blip the throttle and execute a downshift without using the clutch!!!!! on the road and on the track!!
surely the bike would lurch forward each time you blipped, without the clutch disengaging the drive??
If done properly at the right time, it doesnt lurch, but if not done right it will.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:31 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
You do realize that a motorcycle uses what is commonly referred to as a "crashbox" right? This means that using the clutch in between gears does NOTHING to increase the likelyhood of a successful shift. All it does is unload the collar such that you're not having to fight against friction. Killing the ignition (what a quick shifter does) and slightly rolling off accomplish the same thing.
No, I didn't know that because I'm a fking idiot, please explain this to me I have no idea how a quick shifter works, and I'm brand new to motorcycles in general. Educate us all, please.

I really don't care how anyone does it, I'll continue to do it my way and when it becomes an issue for me to need that 0.0000001 of a second to beat someone to the line, I might reconsider how I do things.

The question was asked, I believe we've all given our opinions.

Besides, barring any issues with the shifting mechanisms or transmission parts issues, I've never missed a shift by using the clutch. I have missed the shift or had engagement issues however by not using the clutch

I'm an idiot for even getting in to this conversation... again...


On another note, Curt, let's see if you can get that data, I'm sure since your system takes so many pictures per second, you can probably get on the back straight and alternate ever other shift from clutch to without clutch and see some results.
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:42 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
I really don't care how anyone does it, I'll continue to do it my way and when it becomes an issue for me to need that 0.0000001 of a second to beat someone to the line, I might reconsider how I do things.
+1,000,000

How about instead of talking about riding people start going out there and doing it instead? Interesting concept eh?
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:04 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEAN LADEN View Post
ill stick 2 standard for now
you lieing !!!!


anyway i switched both the gixxa and onda to gp shift. I do like it, but its not smooth transtion. nothing too hard about the gixxa, but the onda was a lil more pain in the but. The hose is in the way Didnt see what wes said about bending the rod atboth ends until just now. Can anyone chime in on that??
Holigan, if you plan on doing this do it now, b/c it takes a minute to get used to.
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Old 11-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #80
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