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Old 10-03-2008, 10:18 AM   #21
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Now here is something really cool. The Yoshi EM Pro; it's a replacement ECU for the GSXR-1K. Unfortunately, the race setup is $4,500.

The full review is at http://sportrider.automotive.com/857...uel/index.html

Some key excerpts:

Traction Control. To some it's the holy grail of rider aids that lets you do no wrong, while to others it's nothing more than a Band-Aid for sloppy riding. In either case, traction control is now available in production form and via the aftermarket, and when we got word that Yoshimura's kit ECU for the GSX-R1000 included a form of the electronic aid, we just had to order a unit up to see for ourselves what all the fuss is about.

The EM Pro (Engine Management Professional) is a replacement black box available for Suzuki GSX-R models that can be used in conjunction with the stock wiring harness or a kit harness that opens up more options. In the GSX-R1000's case, using the kit harness changes the bike's S-DMS function to three degrees of traction control: none (A), soft (B) and hard (C). The system is not true TC in that front-wheel speed is not compared with rear-wheel speed to detect a loss of traction, but rather rpm is monitored and limited should a sudden spike occur (indicating a loss of traction at the rear wheel). Yoshimura's instruction manual calls it a safety mode-others refer to it as rate-of-change traction control-and this was the main feature of the box we were interested in.

SR Test EM Pro Software
The EM Pro software is user-friendly and intuitive, with fuel and ignition mapping programmed using rpm/throttle-position maps. Two complete setups can be downloaded into the ECU and switched on the fly with the hazard switch.

The EM Pro allows other adjustments as well. The software provides direct access to the fuel and ignition curves, and two maps for each can be programmed and individually selected for each gear. The harness converts the hazard switch to a map selector, allowing the rider to change between the two settings on the fly. The EM Pro takes control of the stock bike's fast-idle circuit but for another purpose-holding the throttle open on deceleration for less engine braking. This also can be programmed for one of three levels in each gear. The stock rev limit can be raised by 500 rpm. A pit-lane speed limiter can be turned on with the left turn-signal switch. And finally, a quickshifter function is built in and can be given a set delay time for each gear. Surprisingly, the kit setup uses the stock sidestand switch, relocated, for the quickshifter function, which activates the switch with a pawl bolted to the shift shaft.

To test the EM Pro we handed everything to John Reeves, a local club racer and trackday rider. Installation of the ECU and harness is relatively straightforward but time-consuming, as everything electrical on the bike must be unplugged from the stock harness and plugged into the kit harness. Aside from the benefits of activating the various control functions, the kit harness has shed almost three pounds from the GSX-R with the elimination of most of the street paraphernalia. The software and instruction manual for the EM Pro is quite expansive, but base maps are provided and once everything was installed we were up and running in relatively little time.

Experimenting with the [Traction Control via the] mode switch revealed some interesting characteristics. In B mode the GSX-R was definitely easier to ride, with most slides caught and controlled by the ECU before they could get out of hand. C mode exerted too much control over the power, and lap times were noticeably slower as a result. For most track days and races Reeves used B mode. Interestingly, tire wear is much reduced with the system activated, and perhaps this is the biggest boon traction control offers to the average trackday rider or club racer. Tire performance was more consistent over the course of a race, and rear-tire mileage was markedly better at track days. Our only complaint with the safety mode is that the settings-off, soft and hard-are too coarse, and the ability to fine-tune or further program them would be a big improvement.

As a tuning tool the EM Pro allows almost unrestricted access to the GSX-R's fuel and ignition parameters; this is the main attraction for serious racers. Anyone, however, can benefit from the well-sorted rider aids-the quickshifter, adjustable engine braking and traction control-and the improved tire wear. At $4500 the setup is not cheap, but its functionality and performance are unmatched. Consider a cheaper tire bill and the safety aspects of traction control, and the EM Pro starts to look like a bargain.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:20 AM   #22
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As for TRE; some have an ignition map for only 5th and 6th, so you get the original maps through 5th, only 6th is dubbed w 5th.

Otherwise, the marketing ploy is 1-5-5-5-5-5 and 'it smooths out the engine's power' meaning the ignition isnt as retarded for power. The busas dont have a gear selector. If you're fortunate to not have that feature, there are ways around the 6th gear limiter, but removing the clutch packs and removing the 6th gear lockout sensor and closing the loop on itself.

My gear indicator is built into the TRE and I run w it on all the time, even though yes, I do lose MPG around town.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:22 AM   #23
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Adjustable engine breaking.... interesting... wonder if that's done by keeping the throttles open a little while rolling off the throttle... is your k8 fly by wire?
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaligoneTx View Post
Adjustable engine breaking.... interesting... wonder if that's done by keeping the throttles open a little while rolling off the throttle... is your k8 fly by wire?
No, I have cables. Perhaps they are doing it with ignition and fuel?
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Pre-K View Post
I watched Andy @ MetricMotorcycles do my bike... took him over an hour to do since he was so thorough.

He ran the bike in each gear in 250rpm increments (he did not tune below 3K-4K rpm, because you're seldom down that low even on the street). I BELIEVE the air/fuel ratio is all that is adjusted...

The bike feels ALOT smoother, and ever-so-slightly more powerful. I'll definately do it on my next bike.
+1 Andy did my map and was very meticulous. Mine was on the dyno like half a day. Night and day difference. No dip at 7K rpm that plagues most of the R1's.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
No, I have cables. Perhaps they are doing it with ignition and fuel?
I believe you're right. Its the only thing it can control. Compression is set and there isnt valve timing on this model.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:42 AM   #27
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A GSXR has ONE fuel map. Its not a simple map. You get different amounts of fuel depending on all the inputs (i.e. apply more throttle and the A/F ratio fattens up for better torque production to aid acceleration).

A GSXR has MULTIPLE spark maps depending on gear. This is how it neuters power in lower gears.

A GSXR has a speed limiter in top gear. This is a separate function from the normal fuel map, and wouldn't be considered part of the map.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:45 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
No, I have cables. Perhaps they are doing it with ignition and fuel?


your k8 has a set of secondary throttle bodies that are totally computer controlled. My guess is that these tb's hang open a little. Its these secondary tb's that give the k7+ bikes the selectable maps.

Mode A: secondary tb's will open all the way

Mode B: secondary tb's will only open all the way at WOT

Mode C: secondary tb's stay closed
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:43 AM   #29
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wow lots of misinformation being spread around this thread....here's the skinny.

a PC3 is a piggyback system that fools the ecu into thinking the bike is running leaner/richer than it really is. it does this by intercepting the signals from the various sensors on the bike (coolant temp, throttle position, gear, speed, etc) and reinterprets them to make the ecu change the signal it sends to the injectors, according to how much fuel you want added to taken away.

it's a fairly simple system, but can be tuned to work quite well. however, the pc3 doesn't factor in a lot of different variables, so there's no perfect tune with a pc3.

oh, the dyno run. it's done in 3rd or 4th gear (usually tuner's preference) on a common inertia dyno (dynojet, mustang, etc) to prevent loading the engine too much and possibly blowing the engine. it is NOT ran in top gear like others in this thread were saying. however, on an variable load dyno (such as the factory pro), the tuner can run the bike in any gear he wants because the load put on the bike is variable, according to conditions and tuner input. he can even hold the bike at certain rpm's and throttle positions to get exact hp and torque readings at that rpm and load to fine tune the map perfectly. ALL proper dyno tuning is done with a wideband 02 sensor hooked up to the bike's exhaust. not just by tuning to find what settings make the most power. this can lead to the bike running very lean and grenading, or causing on/off throttle sputter and other driveability issues.

as for the k8 1k....it has 3 fuel maps, and about 18 different ignition maps. but since the pc3 is a piggyback, it doesn't really care, nor matter. the bike is still running off the same maps it always has, it's just the signals before and after the ecu that are being modified. the maps stay the same, the pc3 just changes what parts of the map it's using, again, by fooling the ecu into thinking it's running differently than it is. the biggest downside to all of this is, if you make major changes to the bike (motor build, turbo, nitrous, etc) the ecu doesn't have a broad enough adjustment range from stock to compensate for these changes. the factory ecu can only adjust the fuel injector duty cycle (how long the injector fires) +/- 50% of stock. and yet another downside to the pc3 that many people, including a lot of tuners, don't realize is that when you trick the computer into running different fuel numbers, you're also making it run different ignition timing numbers. for example, say at 65% throttle and 8900rpm the stock bike runs fuel cell F9 and timing cell I9 (they are directly related to eachother because that's how the engineers programmed the ecu to work) well, when you make the ecu think it needs fuel cell F11 at 65% throttle and 8900rpm, it now also thinks it needs ignition cell I11. by attempting to adjust the a/f ratio, the tuner is inadvertently changing the timing as well. now this could be beneficial or detrimental, but without knowing exactly how the timing is changing, there is no way to counteract this effect. unless you also get the ignition module for the pc3, which will again, intercept all signals and modify them to suit the tuner's needs. see how this can get cumbersome and inaccurate now?

the selectable switch on the k8 selects different fuel maps, not adjusts the secondaries. although for each map, the secondary routines are different, they are not the sole factor in why the bike runs differently.

now, if i've explained how the pc3 works well enough, you should be able to understand it's shortcomings by now. the Yoshi race ecu has none (besides price). it is a true replacement ecu that unlocks the potential of the bike's engine and electronics. it allows direct control of both the fuel and ignition maps, not just their input signals.

let me know if ya'll have any more questions, or if you need me to clarify anything i've said.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:51 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretAgent View Post

the selectable switch on the k8 selects different fuel maps, not adjusts the secondaries. although for each map, the secondary routines are different, they are not the sole factor in why the bike runs differently.

I think we have a completely different idea of what a map is based on completely different levels of experience with tuning fuel injection systems. The secondaries may not be the sole factor in the "map" selection, but they are without a doubt the overriding factor.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:54 AM   #31
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most of the top cmra experts use steve upchurch (motion cycles in dallas) for dyno tuning.

hopefully he will be able to program my bazzaz fi controller....i plan on getting the "on the fly" map switch so i can switch from pump fuel to race fuel with the flip of a switch.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:57 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
I think we have a completely different idea of what a map is based on completely different levels of experience with tuning fuel injection systems. The secondaries may not be the sole factor in the "map" selection, but they are without a doubt the overriding factor.
i have to admit, i am not very familiar with the 07-08 1k's, but i have been under the impression, the secondary movement is similar on all three modes. for them to be the overriding factor, they'd have to remain closed throughout the rpm range in c mode, very sluggish to open in b mode, and normal in a mode. like i said though, i'm not familiar with them, and haven't looked at the ecu programming on the 07-08 to know for sure, so you're probably right. i'll have to look into this further.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretAgent View Post
i have to admit, i am not very familiar with the 07-08 1k's, but i have been under the impression, the secondary movement is similar on all three modes. for them to be the overriding factor, they'd have to remain closed throughout the rpm range in c mode, very sluggish to open in b mode, and normal in a mode. like i said though, i'm not familiar with them, and haven't looked at the ecu programming on the 07-08 to know for sure, so you're probably right. i'll have to look into this further.
If you read my previous post, what you've just suggested is EXACTLY what the computer does with the secondaries. In A mode they open full when they're supposed to, in B mode the open partially throughout most of the throttle travel and fully at WOT, and in C mode they stay completely closed.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
If you read my previous post, what you've just suggested is EXACTLY what the computer does with the secondaries. In A mode they open full when they're supposed to, in B mode the open partially throughout most of the throttle travel and fully at WOT, and in C mode they stay completely closed.
haha, yeah, you did already say that huh? my bad...
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
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wow lots of misinformation being spread around this thread....here's the skinny.

oh, the dyno run. it's done in 3rd or 4th gear (usually tuner's preference) on a common inertia dyno (dynojet, mustang, etc) to prevent loading the engine too much and possibly blowing the engine. it is NOT ran in top gear like others in this thread were saying. however, on an variable load dyno (such as the factory pro), the tuner can run the bike in any gear he wants because the load put on the bike is variable, according to conditions and tuner input. he can even hold the bike at certain rpm's and throttle positions to get exact hp and torque readings at that rpm and load to fine tune the map perfectly. ALL proper dyno tuning is done with a wideband 02 sensor hooked up to the bike's exhaust. not just by tuning to find what settings make the most power. this can lead to the bike running very lean and grenading, or causing on/off throttle sputter and other driveability issues.
Easy there high-speed, I'm not sure what it matters if it's 3rd, 4th, or 10th gear, it seems to me that every time I've had it done it's been in 6th. And yeah, it's on a Factory Pro Eddy Current dyno- so even based on what you're saying here, it may be done in 6th.

I even eluded to the fact that I'm not sure on what gear, not that it really matters anyway. My point was that they don't do it in all gears, it's just one- but I'm sure you could pay for having it mapped in all gears if that's what you want.

Besides, your above statement is exactly the way my tuner does the mapping (4 gas, eddy current dyno, etc), I just don't know enough to articulate the particulars of it.

As I mentioned earlier, Patrick has many satisfied customers that bring their bikes to him for dyno tuning. Check out Motorcycles Unlimited and get some straight answers from him.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:13 PM   #36
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the gear only matters when you're looking for HP. Using an underdriven gear will give you falsely high numbers, and using an overdriven gear will give you falsely low numbers. This is part of the reason that comparing dyno numbers is lame.

For tuning you can do it wherever, and there actually might be advantages to tuning in 6th because this is where the engine load is the highest.

EDIT: on suzuki's the spark map is different (retarded) in the lower gears, but I'm fairly certain you can't alter timing with the PCIII anyway.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:22 PM   #37
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This is part of the reason that comparing dyno numbers is lame.

For tuning you can do it wherever, and there actually might be advantages to tuning in 6th because this is where the engine load is the highest.
This is why I take it to the people the know wtf they're doing.

I could care less if it says I have 100 hp or 2, just as long as I have as much usable power in the areas I can use it best.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:25 PM   #38
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I watched Andy @ MetricMotorcycles do my bike... took him over an hour to do since he was so thorough.

He ran the bike in each gear in 250rpm increments (he did not tune below 3K-4K rpm, because you're seldom down that low even on the street). I BELIEVE the air/fuel ratio is all that is adjusted...

The bike feels ALOT smoother, and ever-so-slightly more powerful. I'll definately do it on my next bike.

Was going to be my recommendation as well... Andy is the man...
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
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This is why I take it to the people the know wtf they're doing.

I could care less if it says I have 100 hp or 2, just as long as I have as much usable power in the areas I can use it best.
Yup. I have much less experience with bikes, but I know plenty of car tuners who give you pretty little charts with high numbers on them and the cars either run like when you're actually trying to drive them or put up poor results when it counts (because the power was way too peaky to be useful or the numbers were inflated by dyno trickery).
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:22 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by po-po 5.0 View Post
the gear only matters when you're looking for HP. Using an underdriven gear will give you falsely high numbers, and using an overdriven gear will give you falsely low numbers. This is part of the reason that comparing dyno numbers is lame.

For tuning you can do it wherever, and there actually might be advantages to tuning in 6th because this is where the engine load is the highest.

EDIT: on suzuki's the spark map is different (retarded) in the lower gears, but I'm fairly certain you can't alter timing with the PCIII anyway.
yes and no on the gearing changing numbers. on an inertia dyno, AS LONG AS THE IGNITION IS HOOKED UP PROVIDING A TACH SIGNAL, the numbers will be very close because the dyno will calculate what the final gear ratio is, and calculate it's numbers after the ratio has been converted to 1:1. but, it's not always 100% accurate. the numbers are actually much harder to fudge on an inertia dyno than it is an eddy current dyno. this is due to the variable load source of the eddy current. the inertia dyno has fixed rates of force, that can't be modified as greatly as the numbers of the eddy current.


i should have been a little more clear before as to gear selections. on an inertia dyno running in 6th is almost impossible to do safely unless the weight of the bike and rider is greater than the weight of the steel drum in the dyno. inertia dynos are only recommended to be ran in whatever gear gives a 1:1 ratio to provide as accurate a real world load rating as possible.

the gear doesn't matter on an eddy current dyno because it can vary it's load so the tuner doesn't have to worry about overloading the engine and causing failure.



oh, and yes, the pc3 alone cannot modify timing tables, but if you add the optional ignition module, timing adjustments are possible.
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