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Old 10-02-2008, 10:47 PM   #1
maxgs
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Dyno Tuning / pls explain

ok, there is something about dyno tuning I don't understand. I have all the mods installed on the bike that I'll likely ever have.... full exhaust, pcm, ignition module, bmc air filter, blah blah blah....

I know I need a tune. My understanding of a dyno tune is that the air-fuel is measured and adjusted in fourth gear during a pull. Since the gsxr has a different fuel map for every gear, how does tuning in just one gear really help. Is there something I am missing here?

-Curt
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:53 PM   #2
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I may be wrong....but from what I understand most bikes have a different map for every gear. A true tune would be done with several pulls and testing in each gear.

I know with a PC3 and the software you can customize each RPM range on each gear for air/fuel.

Patrick could maybe chime in here but I think a single dyno run would need one pull from each gear then they would tune from there, and pull again to test the results.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:58 PM   #3
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That would definitely make more sense.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
That would definitely make more sense.
Patrick could tell us for sure. I know you are on the other side of the country now. But there is a place in Alvin called Twisted Cycles that does dyno runs. Could still call them and get info on it if nothing else.
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:31 PM   #5
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I've done more research on this and acquired info from gixxer.com. The power commander does not have fuel maps for each gear. It piggybacks off of the ecu fuel mixture, giving percent increases or decreases for rpm and throttle combinations. So if the tuner adjusts the mixture to be 75% higher at 100% throttle and 10,000 rpm that adjustment would apply across all the gears.

The fuel tables in the power commander are for adjusting the a/f mixture for individual cylinders.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:28 AM   #6
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I watched Andy @ MetricMotorcycles do my bike... took him over an hour to do since he was so thorough.

He ran the bike in each gear in 250rpm increments (he did not tune below 3K-4K rpm, because you're seldom down that low even on the street). I BELIEVE the air/fuel ratio is all that is adjusted...

The bike feels ALOT smoother, and ever-so-slightly more powerful. I'll definately do it on my next bike.

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Old 10-03-2008, 07:26 AM   #7
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Dyno-tuning is a very cool tool. The high dollar teams tune specifically for each track, depending on where the rider is on the track, in what gear, and what type of performance he needs to have while in that part of the track (low end, midrange, high end, etc).

For us mortals, who will likely ride several different tracks and may only get their bikes tuned once, you just have your tuner tune your bike to your riding style.

Personally, I have Andy tune my bike so that I get the most horsepower I can that is consistent throughout the upper rev range since all I do is track riding.

As Todd mentioned, a good tune is made throughout each gear in increments of 100, 200, 250, 300 etc RPMs, and typically start at about 3,000 rpm. The smaller the increments, the more it costs though, so if you want a tune that is that specific, you're going to pay more.

As for each gear, again, it can be done that way, but most will do it in 6th gear only with the rpm increments. The tuners will do it for each gear if you want, I don't know how necessary it is, but basically, with enough money, they'll tune it however you'd like.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:19 AM   #8
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This has got to be the first time I ever heard about tuning in each gear. Never seen a bike done that way, or a car or truck tuned that way. Then again I have never owned a gixxer either, and have never heard about a bike with different maps for each gear....
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
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This has got to be the first time I ever heard about tuning in each gear. Never seen a bike done that way, or a car or truck tuned that way. Then again I have never owned a gixxer either, and have never heard about a bike with different maps for each gear....
They don't, Curt was just asking about it.

Every tuner I've been to has done it in top gear, but with enough money, if that's what the owner wants, I'm sure they'll be happy to accommodate!
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:28 AM   #10
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Interesting post. Kinda headed this way my self over the winter. Look forward to some more detail on the subject. Anybody know the differances between Teca and the PCIII? pro's con's ect.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:42 AM   #11
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I believe the gear inwhich it is tuned it, or at least dynoed for a HP number, will be done in whatever gear gives the best gearing ratio near 1:1. Typically forth gear in standard cars and whatever it may be on the bikes. As geared lower or higher (into overdrive ratios) gives an elevated or reduced horsepower number due to the gear ratios.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdubb View Post
I believe the gear inwhich it is tuned it, or at least dynoed for a HP number, will be done in whatever gear gives the best gearing ratio near 1:1. Typically forth gear in standard cars and whatever it may be on the bikes. As geared lower or higher (into overdrive ratios) gives an elevated or reduced horsepower number due to the gear ratios.
I don't think 6th is 1:1, I'm pretty sure 6th is an over drive gear.

I don't know what they do with cars, I've only done my bikes.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnerscasa View Post
Interesting post. Kinda headed this way my self over the winter. Look forward to some more detail on the subject. Anybody know the differances between Teca and the PCIII? pro's con's ect.

The Teka is a tool that makes changes to the ecu map. Then it’s removed from the bike. the pcIII piggybacks on the ecu and modifies the existing map. It stays on the bike. I think they both have the same effect so I can’t say which is better but I think the PCIII is more versatile. My SV was Teka’ed and runs great! my street bike uses a PCIII.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
I don't think 6th is 1:1, I'm pretty sure 6th is an over drive gear.

I don't know what they do with cars, I've only done my bikes.
The logic should remain the same though. I would think at least.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnerscasa View Post
Interesting post. Kinda headed this way my self over the winter. Look forward to some more detail on the subject. Anybody know the differances between Teca and the PCIII? pro's con's ect.

The chart at the bottom of this page shows some differences.
http://www.factorypro.com/TEKA_SFI/T..._Adjuster.html
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #16
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As you mentioned above, the PCM III is a piggy back system.

Anyone work w matrices?

Say the automatic oem computer changes plus this or minus that in each gear w a fully stock bike.

If you add performance mods, that difference those mods create on the bike are not compensated for. An exhaust and air filter can lean out a bike by allowing more air to go in and out of it. The bike doesn't know how to compensate that unless it has a closed loop oxygen sensor system.

So all the bike knows is load, rpm and request from the TPM or throttle sensor.

So if the mods are installed, they aren't being processed and stock oem output for the injector still thinks Ax needs to be applied in gear 1, Bx in gear 2 and so on.

So, a PCM will take the inputs and and modify each sensor output to the oem computer, making it change the path to the injectors or ignition coils. So each gear can still have its own oem map and the piggy pack works on all of them. Now its A(M)x for modified and so on. The same output is there for each gear but there is added fuel percentage or removal as a baseline. Since each cylinder has its own coil and injector, they are all adjustable individually if you prefer. So as engines wear out and become a little less efficient, it can be compensated.

As for doing dyno pulls in 4th; its a closer 1:1 then most other gears. It also allows a slower 'come up' on the dyno which means you can calibrate the rpms and see the results due to computer lapse times.

Hopes this helps. Wes is one of the men to talk to about this. He knows all the tricks about leaning out track bikes a bit etc.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:33 AM   #17
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However you want it done, take it to Patrick at Motorycycles Unlimited for the hookup

Lots of folks here have been very happy with the results out of Patrick's shop.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:01 AM   #18
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I'm continuing to research exactly how many ignition and fuel maps are on the GSXR-1K. From what I've collected thus far, there are different ignition maps that are select depending on gear. No real surprise here, since TRE's (timing eliminators) have been around for so long. The GSXR TRE's fool the ECU into thinking the bike is in 5th gear all the time as to eliminate the timing and soft fuel cutout that happens in 6th gear.

Regarding fuel maps per gear, I can't find credible sources to validate this exists. I've found references to soft and hard fuel cutout by RPM and gear for the GSXR. I've also found references to three fuel maps based on bike load... essentially a fuel map for light application of the throttle, medium, and wide open. However, it appears these maps are the same irrespective of gear. And, of course, the 07 and 08 GSXR have the A-B-C rider selectable fuel maps that are widely advertised in all the suzuki literature.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:10 AM   #19
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^^^ correct; those maps dont compensate for the additional flow through the system, which is where the PCM corrects for the additional while the oem maps are still working.

Take a gander at one of mine: the oem computer still has its own numbers, but while they are still being used, the PCM adds these numbers to it: sometimes it adds fuel to the oem number, sometimes takes it away. So on yours, A B C can still be used because the PCM is only a baseline or initial mask.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:12 AM   #20
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see the area in the center of this chart? Where all the numbers suddenly go from negative to positive?

This would have been a spot where the bike didn't run effecient due to the exhaust flow and my acceleration wouldnt have been smooth w the oem programming alone. The PCM added fuel during this spot to the existing map 'piggy-backing' the initial calculated injection numbers.
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