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Old 08-12-2008, 07:00 PM   #1
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Lowside Discussion

So I am pretty new to the track day stuff. I have done 1/2 day at MSRH on a 1krr. Then I parked it and bought an R6 and did a Sat. at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Then my last track day was at MSRH.

I was progressing well, running 1:54's at MSRH. I felt good, still needing to work on body position some and running and holding the right line.

So I get into some traffic in the group and cant get around this dude. I am getting frustrated. So we come into the "S's" (i dont know the name) just before the back straight that ends at Diamonds edge and the dude runs REAL wide so I try to dive under him (I know I should pass on the outside per the intermediate rules but we were exiting the left hander and that would have put me on the outside of the next right hander). I dont know if this is flawed thinking.

Anyway, just as I lean the bike more...SWOOSH! out goes the front and a sliding I go.

My Bt002's had about 500 street miles and one Sat at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on them. This was the 3rd session I think. The tread was fine. I am trying to figure out what may have caused this.

The only thing I can think of is that I was not off the bike enough. I am 6"5' and 250lbs. My knee was down and I felt "off" the bike.

Anyway, cracked the case cover, broken left clip on, left rear set gone, of course frame slider and swing arm spool gone. I am up and running again and 90% sure I will be at Cresson this weekend giving it another shot. I didnt get spooked as I finished out my day on a friends bike and managed to stay in the 1:58 range.

Anyway, any of your fast guys have an opinion on this?
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:22 PM   #2
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the "S" was the Bus Stop...if you felt like you were off the bike maybe the front load was disturbed and turned in on you. I dunno...I'm just a novice but I would think that.

So you went down right around the long sweeper?
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:26 PM   #3
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man 1 54? thsats pretty good from what i hear for someone whos new to the track
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthHoustonCBR View Post
the "S" was the Bus Stop...if you felt like you were off the bike maybe the front load was disturbed and turned in on you. I dunno...I'm just a novice but I would think that.

So you went down right around the long sweeper?

If I am not mistaken, yes, just before the right sweeper that heads onto the back straight. It could have been a left hander before that. i KNOW it was not the left hander that has the bump in it. lol I'll never forget that one, almost got bucked there once on the 1k.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA View Post
man 1 54? thsats pretty good from what i hear for someone whos new to the track

Yea...I run 1:56-1:59 by myself. Irish pulled me around for the 1:54's. He was riding one handed!
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post

So I get into some traffic in the group and cant get around this dude. I am getting frustrated. So we come into the "S's" (i dont know the name) just before the back straight that ends at Diamonds edge and the dude runs REAL wide so I try to dive under him (I know I should pass on the outside per the intermediate rules but we were exiting the left hander and that would have put me on the outside of the next right hander). I dont know if this is flawed thinking.

Anyway, just as I lean the bike more...SWOOSH! out goes the front and a sliding I go.

My Bt002's had about 500 street miles and one Sat at TWS (Texas World Speedway) on them. This was the 3rd session I think. The tread was fine. I am trying to figure out what may have caused this.

The only thing I can think of is that I was not off the bike enough. I am 6"5' and 250lbs. My knee was down and I felt "off" the bike.

Anyway, cracked the case cover, broken left clip on, left rear set gone, of course frame slider and swing arm spool gone. I am up and running again and 90% sure I will be at Cresson this weekend giving it another shot. I didnt get spooked as I finished out my day on a friends bike and managed to stay in the 1:58 range.

Anyway, any of your fast guys have an opinion on this?
Addressing the stuff in bold:

1. If held up in traffic and getting frustrated, it's always best to pull in to the pits, wait 20 or so seconds, and get back on the track. Taking deep cleansing breaths at the same time don't hurt none I try to not ride when that feeling comes about.

2. The first question I would ask is what your tire pressures were? Usually that's the most overlooked part of a person's bike. Most tire vendors will tell you that the pressures at the track should be about 5-10 psi lower than street pressures. If you were running 002RS, I think John recommends 28 front, 30 rear, but you should get with him.

3. You're usually never off the bike as much as you think you are. Most new riders think they're getting off the bike, but they aren't, and it's usually proven in pictures. Now, there is a way to be too far off the bike too- an exaggerated body position can be as prohibitive as not being off enough (I saw an example of this yesterday- luckily, he didn't crash).

4. Sometimes folks don't realize that they aren't being smooooooth with the brakes too. Sometimes, you may not realize that you're grabbing too much brake because you don't have the feel too. That comes with practice, practice, practice.

If you're at one of our track days, I'll get in a session with you if you like. I'm not the fastest nor the best, but I may be able to see some of the obvious stuff (better yet, sign up for our school and get some good instruction from Ronnie Hay).

*edit
Almost forgot- being stiff or rigid and not relaxed can cause some of these same results. Likely, if you were frustrated and having a hard time with a slower rider, you were stiff and un-relaxed.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
Addressing the stuff in bold:

1. If held up in traffic and getting frustrated, it's always best to pull in to the pits, wait 20 or so seconds, and get back on the track. Taking deep cleansing breaths at the same time don't hurt none I try to not ride when that feeling comes about.

2. The first question I would ask is what your tire pressures were? Usually that's the most overlooked part of a person's bike. Most tire vendors will tell you that the pressures at the track should be about 5-10 psi lower than street pressures. If you were running 002RS, I think John recommends 28 front, 30 rear, but you should get with him.

3. You're usually never off the bike as much as you think you are. Most new riders think they're getting off the bike, but they aren't, and it's usually proven in pictures. Now, there is a way to be too far off the bike too- an exaggerated body position can be as prohibitive as not being off enough (I saw an example of this yesterday- luckily, he didn't crash).

4. Sometimes folks don't realize that they aren't being smooooooth with the brakes too. Sometimes, you may not realize that you're grabbing too much brake because you don't have the feel too. That comes with practice, practice, practice.

If you're at one of our track days, I'll get in a session with you if you like. I'm not the fastest nor the best, but I may be able to see some of the obvious stuff (better yet, sign up for our school and get some good instruction from Ronnie Hay).
Yea...I looked at some pictures and I am not leading with my head like I should.

I had 29 in the front (I was aiming for 30, over shot it and said screw it, 29 is fine) 30 in the rear.

I was definately not too far off the bike. I struggle with getting off enuf period.

I will catch one of your track days. As a matter of fact, before heading to Cresson I looked for any organization that had a day this weekend, but TTD is the only one.

And you are right. I should have just pitted for a few seconds....That was probably the primary mistake I made.

Thx for the advice. Ill catch a LSTD event real soon. Guaranteed!
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
Yea...I looked at some pictures and I am not leading with my head like I should.

I had 29 in the front (I was aiming for 30, over shot it and said screw it, 29 is fine) 30 in the rear.

I was definately not too far off the bike. I struggle with getting off enuf period.

I will catch one of your track days. As a matter of fact, before heading to Cresson I looked for any organization that had a day this weekend, but TTD is the only one.

And you are right. I should have just pitted for a few seconds....That was probably the primary mistake I made.

Thx for the advice. Ill catch a LSTD event real soon. Guaranteed!
Leading with the head is subjective advice- it works for some, others it doesn't. I refuse to believe that there is "one" technique that is "right". Now, I firmly believe that looking through the corner is one of the "absolutes" regarding an effective riding position, but most of the other advice given as "the right way" can be a lot of BS. That's my opinion though, I'm sure others will argue why I'm wrong

Tire pressures sounded good, I'm purty sure that's what John recommends

We've got a track day coming up on the 22nd (a Friday), but we'll have I think 4 more events before the end of the season.

It's all good as long as you're getting track time, I just wasn't going to offer to help you on track at someone else's gig, ya dig? Good things come from experience

If you do get out to one of our upcoming events (I think we have a Sunday event at TWS (Texas World Speedway) coming up), hit me up if you want me to follow you around and tell you what I observe.

Feel free to pm or post up some pics. It's not the best way to do a critique, but you can pick out some things.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:48 PM   #9
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Cold pressures 29 front & 28 rear. What kind of suspension do you have? No disrespect, but 1:54's are no problem for the BT002's so I doubt the tires were the culprit. My guess would be suspension or rider imputs. That corner has claimed more bikes than I can count, it really lends it'self to crashing because that corner leads onto the back straight so you want to really come hard out of that corner. That puts alot of load on the suspension, front & rear.

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Old 08-12-2008, 10:21 PM   #10
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That sucks you crashed , but the track is the best place to crash at. Got any pics of bike ?
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Cold pressures 29 front & 28 rear. What kind of suspension do you have? No disrespect, but 1:54's are no problem for the BT002's so I doubt the tires were the culprit. My guess would be suspension or rider imputs. That corner has claimed more bikes than I can count, it really lends it'self to crashing because that corner leads onto the back straight so you want to really come hard out of that corner. That puts alot of load on the suspension, front & rear.

John
Suspension is stock. 2005 R6. It had been adjusted for me. The tires had nothing to do with it. I am not expert on tires, but I have tried qualifiers, pilot powers and bt002. I feel zero difference between them all and the bt002's are less expensive. Furthermore, no disrespect taken, there are guys runnin the 002's that are smokin.

As far as the back straight, you may be on to something there, I was going to try and get a run into that sweeping right and try to pass on the straight. Maybe I shifted my weight just enough, too early or akwardly, that something happened with the front suspension.

Bottom line, I probably need to slow down a bit and learn more about the physics and whatnot before trying to be fast.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
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That sucks you crashed , but the track is the best place to crash at. Got any pics of bike ?
Someone took some I think. Nothing big...left clip on hangin by electrical, left foot peg gone, left frame slider gone, swingarm spool gone, gash in the case cover, and minor body work damage. Bout a 500 dollar setback. Screw it, it's just money, Ill get more on friday.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:03 PM   #13
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You said it was the third session...but what lap was it of that session?
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:11 PM   #14
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That sucks you crashed , but the track is the best place to crash at. Got any pics of bike ?

Warpbender got a pic. You had half the infield stuck between your radiator and frame!!

Could have played some soccer on that chit!
BWAHAHAHHHAHAH!

Just kidding... sorry you went down.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:12 PM   #15
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You said it was the third session...but what lap was it of that session?
Maybe 4th lap. It could have been the 2nd session tho too. I am really not sure. It was definately lap 4 or 5.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:13 PM   #16
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Warpbender got a pic. You had half the infield stuck between your radiator and frame!!

Could have played some soccer on that chit!
BWAHAHAHHHAHAH!

Just kidding... sorry you went down.
No chit right! grass.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:16 PM   #17
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theres some bumps in the left hander coming out of the bus stop.. that could've upset the suspension some
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdill35 View Post
Suspension is stock. 2005 R6. It had been adjusted for me. The tires had nothing to do with it. I am not expert on tires, but I have tried qualifiers, pilot powers and bt002. I feel zero difference between them all and the bt002's are less expensive. Furthermore, no disrespect taken, there are guys runnin the 002's that are smokin.

As far as the back straight, you may be on to something there, I was going to try and get a run into that sweeping right and try to pass on the straight. Maybe I shifted my weight just enough, too early or akwardly, that something happened with the front suspension.

Bottom line, I probably need to slow down a bit and learn more about the physics and whatnot before trying to be fast.
I am spitballin here but I'm going to guess it will be more suspension than anything. As you get on the gas, weight distribution shifts from the front to the rear. Even with the sag set properly (which is tough with the stock springs) the valving especially the rebound in the front leaves alot ot be desired. As the rear sqauts under acceleration, the front forks extend to keep the front tire in contact with the track. If the fork movement is too slow, the front will loose contact with the track, and viola lowside. So getting your suspension adjusted is a pretty important thing. Who last adjusted the bike's suspension?

John
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawi jm View Post
I am spitballin here but I'm going to guess it will be more suspension than anything. As you get on the gas, weight distribution shifts from the front to the rear. Even with the sag set properly (which is tough with the stock springs) the valving especially the rebound in the front leaves alot ot be desired. As the rear sqauts under acceleration, the front forks extend to keep the front tire in contact with the track. If the fork movement is too slow, the front will loose contact with the track, and viola lowside. So getting your suspension adjusted is a pretty important thing. Who last adjusted the bike's suspension?

John
Wes, TTD, At TWS (Texas World Speedway) 2 week prior was the last set up.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:35 AM   #20
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Were you running Bt002 Ride Smart or were your Running the Bt002 Pro's?
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