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Old 08-02-2008, 11:23 PM   #61
Candie
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Broken pinky huh??? You just wanted a sexy crooked pinky like mine! Glad you are ok! Lots of run offs today! I think the heat got to evertone today! It is hard to get focused while it is so stinkin hott! I look forward to fall!
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Old 08-03-2008, 07:21 AM   #62
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It was an awesome day but man it was hot as !
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave C View Post
it was a busy day yesterday in the corners. Just glad everyone for the most part is OK.

So for the guys who have been on the track for a long time. is this normal? one track day hardly any wrecks/issues and another it seems like every session atleast 1 goes down? i'm thinking it was the heat but i could be wrong =). i was at turn 12 and 13 doing corner work =)
Heat had nothing to do with mine. I was cookin (by my standards), got held up in traffic, tried to take a sharper (for lack of better word) line to pass and, I guess, wasn't off the bike enough (cause I NEVER blame anyoe or anything but myself) for the angle I toook and lost the front. Lowside.

It was a bad line for me.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:12 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave C View Post
it was a busy day yesterday in the corners. Just glad everyone for the most part is OK.

So for the guys who have been on the track for a long time. is this normal? one track day hardly any wrecks/issues and another it seems like every session atleast 1 goes down? i'm thinking it was the heat but i could be wrong =). i was at turn 12 and 13 doing corner work =)
I wouldn't say normal, but definitely not abnormal. I've convinced myself that I out rode my tires The heat may have played a role, but I felt that, I myself, was cooking for not being in the saddle in over two and a half months and maybe my tires had something to do with it. I honestly was trying to get that "last" trackday out of this set, and well, now it's gonna cost me $700 instead of $300 for new shoes

From what I understand, my mistake was that I should have stayed on the throttle. As the end broke loose (after the apex) and started sliding out from under me I simply rolled off the throttle, the rear tire hoooked back up, bike stood up and went into a violent headshake and then tossed me over the windshield It was a fun ride, gives me something to talk about, something to learn from, and hopefully next time I'll be able to correct it without leaving my throne.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:16 AM   #65
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From Twist of the Wrist 2...

"Is the bike more stable or less stable when it has the correct
amount of weight on each tire? The old racing rule of "When in doubt, gas
it!" does most certainty have some validity*.
An extreme example of this happened to Doug Chandler at Sears Point
Raceway in 1989, while he led the 750cc Supersport race on dry
pavement. His rear tire was so "cooked" that it began to slide going into
the turns simply from being off the gas. (Another potential hazard of on/off
the gas in high-load-cornering situations.)
One lap he put down a strip of rubber at least 30 feet long as the
back "came around" (slid) and the steering went all the way to stop.
Staying off the throttle would have led to, without question, a massive
highside*. Of course, being the talented dirt tracker he is, Chandler turned
on the gas, the rear tire spun and the bike wobbled as it straightened out
he stayed on board and in the lead. On the gas was the only solution."
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:17 AM   #66
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And another Twist of the Wrist 2 quote...

"Throttle rule Number One, the smooth roll-on, has other distinct*
advantages you should know about, especially during a rear-end slide.
Provided you weren't already too greedy with the throttle, your best
insurance against more sliding or a highside is simply to stop rolling on the
gas. The bike slows gradually, rather than quickly (as it would from
chopping the throttle), and comes back into alignment* smoothly."
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:24 AM   #67
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^^^^

So which is it....slowly roll off or slowly roll back on the throttle??? Maybe it's because I hit my head and drank 10 beers last night, but those two situations sound completely 180 from each other.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:27 AM   #68
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It says "stop rolling on the throttle"; the implication is don't get off the throttle. I'll look for a better quote.
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:34 AM   #69
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"Off-Gas Problems
So, off-the-gas also has its downside. Off-the-gas makes the rear
suspension compress along with the front suspension. If you come off the
gas mid-turn, you lose cornering ground-clearance* at both ends, instantly.
Here is another SR #1 example: Say the rider drags some part of his bike,
then shuts off the gas in surprise or alarm; instantly the bike is dragging
even more, maybe even lifting one or both wheels off the pavement. SR #1
has struck again.
What is the basic rule of throttle control?
Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly,
and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn. (Say it to yourself
1000 or 2000 times)."
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:42 AM   #70
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maxgs has that book downloaded huh good quotes! stuff to remember next time i hit up the track and it was hella hot im kinda glad sunday was canceled i dont think i would of made it the full day sunday esp after conerworkin in the heat the previous day then going out to ride the next.... that would of been killer i dont see how the guys run two different groups at the same time..thats just nutz
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:48 AM   #71
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More from Twist of the Wrist 2...

Riding and Sliding

Is a motorcycle truly out of control when sliding? How do you save
it when the front or rear tire gives up traction? Why don't the fast guys
crash when their bikes slide? While wiggles and shakes are distracting,
there is a far more dramatic and deadly result from SR #2 that you should
fully understand and it has to do with sliding.

Perfect Design
Take this idea: A motorcycle in motion is a pretty stable* unit if left
alone by the rider. Put the bike into a slide to see if it's true. Does the
motorcycle feel stable to you when sliding? It should, if you're doing it
right.

In the most typical of slides, you have the back end "coming
around." What isn't understood by most riders and something that brings
up a very real drawback of SR #2, is the fact that the bike actually
compensates* for this slide automatically.

In a rear end slide the front end turns toward the direction the bike
is actually going -into the slide. The main mass of the bike is moving
outward and the front wheel turns just the right amount to stabilize it. This
feature comes free of charge with every motorcycle. In a car, if the back
end comes around, the front wheels turn to the inside of the turn, creating
a pivot point for the car's mass, and it spins out. Learning how to drive a
car in the snow is mostly a matter of understanding that you have to
manually turn the wheel into the skid to stabilize it. You don't on a bike.
When the bike slides and SR #2 is triggered, the rider with good
reactions and a strong back is in trouble. If the rider is successful at
holding the bars tight enough that they don't turn into the slide, the bike
now acts like the car: The front contact patch becomes a pivot point,
except that a motorcycle doesn't spin out, it highsides.

More little slides have turned into far worse situations than you
would care to know, because of this dramatic result of SR #2. I suppose it
pays to be slow and weak in this circumstance. In my own experience,
having the bike slide and then being stunned* into inaction (an SR of a
kind), then noticing the bike really didn't do anything wrong (didn't crash),
made me understand this self-correcting aspect of motorcycle dynamics.
For dirt riders, this is the main tool for cornering.

SR Combination
Chopping the throttle (SR #1) and tightening on the bars (SR #2)
together form a deadly duo. The normal result of chopping the gas when
the back slides is immediate traction, which stands the bike up. This is the
first stage of a highside crash. If you catch it before the back is too far out,
usually it isn't a problem; the bike just shakes a bit as the wheels come
back into alignment. If you don't go completely off the gas, the bike is far
more stable than if you do!
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:50 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphin View Post
maxgs has that book downloaded huh good quotes! stuff to remember next time i hit up the track and it was hella hot im kinda glad sunday was canceled i dont think i would of made it the full day sunday esp after conerworkin in the heat the previous day then going out to ride the next.... that would of been killer i dont see how the guys run two different groups at the same time..thats just nutz
I own the book too... it this age of sharing everything over the internet, it's important to remember to Pay the Author.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:10 AM   #73
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The track day that might have been…

I was one of the guys that threw his bike away in the first session of intermediate . If you think like me, the only silver lining to reading the ‘rider down’ posts etc is to learn from others mistakes/events and prevent them from happening to you.

I low-sided entering the Key Hole on the 7th lap of the first session; I think my knee had just began to touch down. From what witnesses tell me, the backend came around causing a classic lowside (don’t know why I didn’t high side??).

Here’s what didn’t cause my wreck: cold tires (they had been on warmers for 1 hour prior to the first session and had 7 laps to get hot); tire pressures (28 psi front; 26 psi rear---after the tires had a chance to cool off). I’m not convinced it was obvious rider input error (too much braking, too much throttle too soon or too much corner/entrance speed, target fixation). I had taken that corner MUCH faster two laps before to pass a couple of ppl on the outside and didn’t feel it sliding around….I wasn’t going for the plastic trophy….yet

Possible causes: fairly worn rear tire (BT003 medium compound that was slightly past the wear bars); slick spot/moisture on the track (I should have followed Buck’s advice and taken it very easy in the morning while the moisture dries off) ---but like I said earlier, I had been through that corner much faster a few laps before. Something mechanical (I haven’t had the chance to see if anything on the rear end is loose---not likely though)

When all is said and done, it was most likely some type of rider error and the bike decided to find a new rider. I just wish I learned more from the wreck, because honestly I don’t know what I did wrong. You know what they say “Those that fail to learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them” So if you have any more suggestions/ideas, I’m open to them; PLEASE PM them to me so we don’t derail this thread.

The thing I regret most is wasting an amazing opportunity to have instruction from the Tims (Bubby/Godzuki) and Brad (BubbaRRay)…these are my track day reflections of what might have been…

I’ve got to go back to work now (which means no track days for the next 9 months ) but I expect to see you guys out there at trackdays in June of 09. Until then, I’ll be reading Twist of the Wrist II many times.

-James
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:13 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
SR Combination
Chopping the throttle (SR #1) and tightening on the bars (SR #2)
together form a deadly duo. The normal result of chopping the gas when
the back slides is immediate traction, which stands the bike up. This is the
first stage of a highside crash. If you catch it before the back is too far out,
usually it isn't a problem; the bike just shakes a bit as the wheels come
back into alignment. If you don't go completely off the gas, the bike is far
more stable than if you do!
I think this is exactly what happened....rear end starts sliding out (at this point I almost said screw it, I'll just lowside), but I slowly rolled off the throttle, rear tire grabbed, bike stood up and immediately I had head shake and wham!!!!! Here I was Supermanning that hoe

Quote:
Originally Posted by slight View Post
I’ve got to go back to work now (which means no track days for the next 9 months ) but I expect to see you guys out there at trackdays in June of 09. Until then, I’ll be reading Twist of the Wrist II many times.

-James
Nice to meet ya dude

Last edited by dbuck; 08-03-2008 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:26 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slight View Post
I low-sided entering the Key Hole on the 7th lap of the first session; I think my knee had just began to touch down...

I had taken that corner MUCH faster two laps before to pass a couple of ppl on the outside and didn’t feel it sliding around….

Possible causes: fairly worn rear tire (BT003 medium compound that was slightly past the wear bars)
-James
It's possible that by passing people on the outside of the Keyhole you got into a dirty/dusty area and lost grip. That's a gutsy place to make a pass IMHO.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:29 AM   #76
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Quote:
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It's possible that by passing people on the outside of the Keyhole you got into a dirty/dusty area and lost grip. That's a gutsy place to make a pass IMHO.
hes on a gixxer, thats just how we roll.
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:36 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
It's possible that by passing people on the outside of the Keyhole you got into a dirty/dusty area and lost grip. That's a gutsy place to make a pass IMHO.
However, it's a fun place to make a pass
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:39 AM   #78
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Quote:
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I was probably all over the place so sorry if slowed you down too much




You didnt slow me down , that was my first time on a track too!

was fun i got passed by like 3 people!
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Old 08-03-2008, 10:57 AM   #79
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Quote:
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From what I understand, my mistake was that I should have stayed on the throttle. As the end broke loose (after the apex) and started sliding out from under me I simply rolled off the throttle, the rear tire hoooked back up, bike stood up and went into a violent headshake and then tossed me over the windshield It was a fun ride, gives me something to talk about, something to learn from, and hopefully next time I'll be able to correct it without leaving my throne.
Your bike came out of it pretty well considering it did at least one complete roll in the air. I'm glad you were hurt because it looked like it would!
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Old 08-03-2008, 11:03 AM   #80
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Your bike came out of it pretty well considering it did at least one complete roll in the air. I'm glad you were hurt because it looked like it would!
I hope you meant weren't...
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