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Old 07-28-2008, 10:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrofallout View Post
With rear brake I was referring to street riding, not on the track. (This isn't in the racers section this is General Discussion) On the track obviously you would only use rear brake if say you went off the track because you won't be able to get your foot on it if the ball of your foot is on the peg how it should be.

What you learn on the track is applicable to the street. Like Patrick said, as long as you know what you're doing, rear brake can help.
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:21 PM   #22
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I usually do my trail braking as an extension of my set up for the turn, in other words and I am still on the brakes when I initiate the turn and continue to apply brakes until just before the apex. I've found that the chasis doesn't get upset since the braking is constant and isn't re-applied mid corner. But that's just what I am confortable with on my bike....

The rear brake usually doesn't enter the picture...
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:28 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumper View Post
I usually do my trail braking as an extension of my set up for the turn, in other words and I am still on the brakes when I initiate the turn and continue to apply brakes until just before the apex. I've found that the chasis doesn't get upset since the braking is constant and isn't re-applied mid corner. But that's just what I am confortable with on my bike....

The rear brake usually doesn't enter the picture...
It helps because you load the front end in preperation for the turn instead of loading you forks then them unloading then reloading while turning hard. Same principle can be applied for the street.
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:34 PM   #24
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First and foremost, as Buck Beasely said to me on my first Td ever, try to turn the bike a lil harder. If you're absolutely sure that alone won't keep you between the lines, ease a tiny bit of pressure onto the front brake with a finger or two. The back brake is way too easy to lock up, plus you don't have as much finesse with your right foot as you do with one finger.
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Old 07-28-2008, 02:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
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It helps because you load the front end in preperation for the turn instead of loading you forks then them unloading then reloading while turning hard. Same principle can be applied for the street.
Exactly!!
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:14 PM   #26
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
You definitely do NOT want to use your front brakes because your front tire turning the bike.

I saw the above statement and wanted to post this because I totally disagree about the front tire turning the bike. I've seen racers coming thru corners, still leaned, still turning, but on the throttle with the front tire lifting and the bike still finishes the turn. That isn't the front steering it but this guy explains it better.



Steering
Your REAR wheel does it more often than not

By: James R. Davis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Steer" - To direct the course of.

When your motorcycle is stable in any course, whether in a straight line or in a curve, it is your rear wheel that is primarily responsible for maintaining that course and stability. Indeed, it's the job of your front wheel to DESTABILIZE the bike in order to change course. That is, your front wheel changes course, your rear wheel maintains it.

How is that possible? Well, I suppose it is easiest to think of in terms of influence. A spinning rear wheel provides gyroscopic stability to over 80% of your motorcycle (including yourself) because it is directly connected via its axle/swing-arm to the frame of the motorcycle. The front-end is only indirectly influenced by the spinning rear wheel.

[Rather a lot of attention has been given to this article in recent days because certain readers have maintained that if rear-wheel gyroscopic forces are so great it *should* be virtually impossible to 'flick' a fast moving bike into a lean as you enter a turn. Well, what the gyroscopic forces generated by a spinning rear wheel does is to try to maintain the direction of travel of the bike - and, just as with the front wheel, when a change in direction happens the wheel responds with 'precession' and leans at a 90 degree vector to that change. When you use counter-steering on the front of the bike to go, for example, to the right, you press the right grip forward. That causes the direction of travel of the bike to momentarily change to the LEFT which, in turn, is felt in both the front and rear wheels and the result is that both of them lean towards the RIGHT. The harder/faster the counter-steer effort is, the greater/faster that lean will occur. And THAT is why you can 'flick' the bike over onto a significant lean. (i.e., you are using gyroscopic precession.) Actually, that is only a small part of it - it's centrifugal force that accounts for the vast majority of counter-steering functionality.]

When a motorcycle is stable it will maintain its current course until an outside influence or steering input to the front-end results in destabilizing it and a new course is sought that will once again result in a stable motorcycle.

Proof that the rear wheel is directing the course of your motorcycle is easy to come by. Watch any motorcycle that is performing a 'wheelie'. Whether it is going in a straight line or it is in a curve, the motorcycle will continue that course even while the front wheel is off the ground.

The significance of this otherwise esoteric bit of insight should be to cause you to rethink about locking your brakes. For example, it should now no longer be a surprise that if (while going straight) you lock your rear brake and cause a skid that the motorcycle does not simply drag the rear tire along in a straight line - the majority of the motorcycle is deprived of the stabilizing effect of a spinning rear tire and it will try to fall over to one side or the other. On the other hand, if you lock your front brake (while going straight) and cause the front tire to begin to skid, there is every reason to believe that (so long as the rear wheel continues to spin with some speed and you leave the front wheel pointing straight ahead) the bike will continue to stand tall and track straight while you correct the problem (by releasing the front brake lever.)

Indeed, so long as there is meaningful speed and you are moving in a straight line, locking the front brake (for a brief time) is less dangerous than locking the rear brake. Obviously you do not want to lock either brake, ever, but it will happen. Further, we all know that we should not aggressively use either brake while the bike is leaned over in a curve. But now you should know that it is NEVER reasonable to aggressively use the rear brake, and why.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 1992 - 2008 by The Master Strategy Group, all rights reserved.
http://www.msgroup.org

(James R. Davis is a recognized expert witness in the fields of Motorcycle Safety/Dynamics.)
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Old 07-28-2008, 03:58 PM   #28
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Man this topic somehow it comes up every 2 or 3 months.....a lot of good info on that mang
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Old 07-28-2008, 04:04 PM   #29
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brake before the turn and lean lean lean then throttle throttle throttle...
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Old 07-28-2008, 04:08 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthHoustonCBR View Post
brake before the turn and lean lean lean then throttle throttle throttle...
Lol that's it...problem fixed....and yea ur right bro I rather brake more and kind of start slow than getting in too hot and eat it
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Old 07-28-2008, 07:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Lol that's it...problem fixed....and yea ur right bro I rather brake more and kind of start slow than getting in too hot and eat it
I agree, I was just wondering about a situation where you had to slow down a bit.
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Old 07-28-2008, 08:00 PM   #32
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On the street, or light cornering I use the rear, not adjusting the throttle...

If im overly aggressive in a corner and begin leaning it and get worried I try to cut it harder and hold it longer so exit is on the line(always use your whole lane... staggering on a country rode is foolish... that extra foot of pavement you made by cutting on the inside of the lane may save you on the exit.

I have used a front brake(two finger front) a few times in the corners but I keep the throttle fixed.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:13 PM   #33
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Go to the book store and buy "Twist of the Wrist: Volume Two" and "Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track" by Nick Ienatsch

These are great!


I bought them in 10th grade and my teachers said I was riding at a 12th grade level.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:23 PM   #34
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One thing not mentioned in all this is when you use the brakes with the bike leaned over, you also need to add a little countersteer to keep the bike from standing up. It is possible to brake fairly hard while leaned over, but not if you are already at the limits of your available traction.

It is actually a skill that is very handy on the street as you never know what might be around the bend, and you don't always have the option to straighten the bike out.
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:31 PM   #35
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Use Google:

http://rapidshare.com/files/50808208...he_Wrist_2.rar
http://rs175.rapidshare.com/files/54...techniques.pdf
http://rs161.rapidshare.com/files/54...Techniques.pdf
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Old 07-29-2008, 09:41 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Richards View Post
Go to the book store and buy "Twist of the Wrist: Volume Two" and "Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track" by Nick Ienatsch

These are great!


I bought them in 10th grade and my teachers said I was riding at a 12th grade level.
I refer to Sport Riding Techniques alot. If you buy this book and read it and apply the priciples you will enjoy riding a whole lot more. I had an accident about 2 1/2yrs ago due to rider stupidity and ignorance (yes mine) and vowed to be a better rider. That's when I got that book and started to see all the bad habits I had cultivated and started to learn the right way. There is a lot more to riding a bike than some people believe. For example I didn't know that there were actually 4 ways that you can steer a bike. You will understand the design of the bike and the physics involved, stuff you could never learn or understand on your own. Well worth the money. I tell any new rider that this should be your first mod, brain upgrade 2.0. Because not everyone can afford a trackday, you can at least afford a book. I highly advise a trackday as well. I've only done one myself but I felt like I got a years experience with what I learned out there.
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