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Old 07-12-2008, 09:28 PM   #61
rc51eviltwin
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But now lets start, there are many different techniques of hanging off the bike but there are common rules which need to be followed for achieving it correctly.

The first rule is that you need to move your body out of the seat and inside the turn, then you need to do this in a manner which does not disturb the bike, which would create problems and finally you need to have your hands relaxed and not pressing on the clipons.

So what is the procedure of cornering and body transition from side to side? (as mentioned above there are different ways of doing this, but you should always remember the common rules, bellow I will describe the way I prefer).


I always prefer to position my body before I start braking; this helps me because under heavy braking body movements will disturb the bike (again for us mortals, racers usually can do it without any problems). And if I try to position my body after braking (which would be the start of the corner) again I might disturb the bike. So before you start braking move your inside cheek outside of the bike (for example approaching a left turn you would move your left cheek to the outside of the bike) so much that only the opposite cheek rests on the seat.
Again before braking I prefer of positioning my legs properly so that I don’t need to adjust my positioning during cornering. So I usually rest the ball of my inside foot to the edge of the peg, this helps me because of my height if I rest the ball on my peg I won’t be able to easily open my leg later (there is no correct or wrong at this, you need to find which is more relaxing and easily achieved for you). Note that you should be carefully positioning your leg, if you toes extend far to the ground there is a big chance of injuring them (I’ve seen riders breaking their toes while scraping the rearsets).

Your outside leg should be placed normaly on the rearset but you need to make sure that it allows you to put pressure on it, since its going to replace your hands on body movement later plus you will use it as a suspension extension.
When you have finished positioning your body you should actually start the braking of the bike, this is another crucial step of cornering and its crucial that it is performed correctly.

One major error that new riders perform most oftenly is shifting weight to the front system (suspension, tire) while braking, this is a major reason of some crashes, your hands should be resting you should not be pushing the clipons while braking because they only thing you achieve is moving more weight to the front end system, more weight distribution means higher chances of loosing traction and crashing (remember the 40% - 60% rule mentioned?) I know I can hear you asking how you maintain your body positioning on the bike while braking, and the answer is between your legs (eh…not that) your tank! Grab the tank with your outside leg (right leg for a left hand corner) and push against it to maintain your body positioned, push also down your outside leg so that your body does not disturb further the bike. While you are braking always remember that you don’t let your brakes go free while heavy braking, you need to smoothly release the brakes because if you don’t you are disturbing even more your front end system (sudden release of the brakes means quick suspension rebounding which disturbs your bike again).
While you are smoothly releasing the brakes, start lowering your torso, this is vital! And most times forgotten or done the wrong way, the heaviest part of your body (as mentioned again before) is your torso and your head, not your waste nor your legs, it’s the upper body which needs to move for proper hanging off. Also note that you are not pivoting around the tank, you are moving sideways outside, pivoting is not wrong but its hard to do it correctly when you are a novice rider (regarding body positioning) I see most of the people pivoting that they have their torso quite high and above the tank this is totally wrong since your body needs to move to the outside. So start lowering your torso and bend your elbows if you don’t bend your elbows you won’t be able to lower your torso and there is a big chance that you will be applying pressure to the handlebars.

One technique that helps your get the correct body positioning is called “kiss the mirror” that’s the technique that will produce you the best results regarding the positioning, it is achieved by bending your hands, and moving your torso towards the mirror in a position like you are trying to kiss it. This means usually that the inside hand should be bend around 90 degrees (to give you and idea), a small part of your torso should be touching the tank (the inner part should be hanging off) and your outside hand (right on a left hand turn) should be resting on top of the tank. While you are lowering your torso point your inside knee to the inside of the turn (try to move it around 40 – 45 degrees to the inside of the turn).

Again remember not to put pressure on the handlebars / clipons you are just touching them and using them to countersteer nothing more nothing less. This movements are performed while the bike is coasting (it’s the part where you have finished with the brakes, you keep the throttle steady –maybe just a tab of roll off to use also the engine break- ).
Once you have finished with body positioning you should be in the entrance of the corner, now you either keep the throttle steady or you start opening it, but never never (unless you are an experienced rider) back off or hit the brakes, you need to try to maintain the 40% - 60% weight distribution and that’s done at this time by throttle control.
Your outside foot should start pushing on the rearset, this will transfer the center of mass further down (from the tank to the peg), this is achieved because you are pressing down the peg and not the seat or the tank, the peg is lower than the other points and thus you get a transfer of the center of mass.
Always look at the vanishing point this is the only way to properly ride through a corner, you don’t look down, you don’t look outside, you don’t look inside you look at the end of the corner, this way your brain reads the corner and provides the proper information to the rest of your body parts to move correctly, where you look is where you go, sounds strange but that’s how it works, look outside of the corner and you will end up there.
The first times you will try you probably are not going to be dragging a knee, that’s normal you don’t drag a knee to impress people, you use it to understand how much lean angle you got there, but I know surely that you will start feeling totally different, you will instantly start understanding how wrong you where riding and how much more confident you will feel. Now once you tried a few times look at your tires, woa yes you got chicken strips (unless you got mad lean angles and you where dragging your knee) maybe a bit big, but that’s an indication you are moving correctly, your bike now needs less lean angle to make it through a turn, and surely you feel you can use even more throttle. Well if you feel that, then you surely do understand why you hang off the bike, you don’t do it to look like Rossi (well you like to look like him I am sure J ) you do it to allow yourself to ride better, quicker and safer.
All of the above movements are done usually rather quickly and you must practise to make them without disturbing the bike. It’s going to be difficult since you will feel that you can’t handle the bike properly at the time you start hanging off, but I can assure you that it’s far safer to hang off rather than stay on! Off course this means you are practising on a track or somewhere that there is no traffic or other kind of obstacles which could put your life or health in danger.
Don’t try to drag a knee if it doesn’t happen the first time, chasing such a thing could put you in danger, know your limits, if you start feeling you are riding above your skills and your limits then call the day off, you will achieve this by practise but maybe not the first day.
This article is not complete, as mentioned in the begging there are many other aspects needed to be controlled and understood before trying to move to this, you should attend a school where you are taught and “monitored” by the instructors.
If your corner is a really slow speed corner then hanging off might not be necessary since its more effective in higher speeds, again a small transition of body weight will help you turn more easily, but don’t try to hang off if you are not experienced.
If you think something is missing or something is wrong or you would like to suggest something else, just drop a line bellow.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:30 PM   #62
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Last edited by rc51eviltwin; 07-12-2008 at 09:34 PM. Reason: added pics
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:34 PM   #63
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again, not all riders will conform to this or have any of it apply. The only absolute in motorcycling is that there are no absolutes.

People that try to teach "a line" or teach "proper body position" as an absolute ("this is the way it's done"), leave out essential portions of the puzzle- namely the individual rider.

While it's true that some things help or can help, there is no "one right way" or absolute "wrong way". Some of the fastest riders in the world have what most would consider poor body position.

Instruction is a great way to learn, especially if you're being taught by folks with experience in the craft and have tons of laps after they had quality instruction of their own or follow a well adopted curriculum.

Not trying to knock anything, just sayin', riding position, among lots of other things in motorcycling, is something that ends up being very tailored to the individual eventually.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:51 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again, not all riders will conform to this or have any of it apply. The only absolute in motorcycling is that there are no absolutes.

People that try to teach "a line" or teach "proper body position" as an absolute ("this is the way it's done"), leave out essential portions of the puzzle- namely the individual rider.

While it's true that some things help or can help, there is no "one right way" or absolute "wrong way". Some of the fastest riders in the world have what most would consider poor body position.

Instruction is a great way to learn, especially if you're being taught by folks with experience in the craft and have tons of laps after they had quality instruction of their own or follow a well adopted curriculum.

Not trying to knock anything, just sayin', riding position, among lots of other things in motorcycling, is something that ends up being very tailored to the individual eventually.
+1
i also believe the same,for example.
if i wanted to,and had the talent of course,go as fast as possible at,lets say MSR-C,i would prolly call on Tye or another racer who holds a lap record on the particular track.that meaning that the fastest,smoothest rider is not the same on every track.seems like each modifies their lines to their comfort.IMO
i did not write the article but have learned from it,most of whats on it is not opinion but rather facts of phisycs.again i hold NO kindda degree on phisycs and am not trying to say "this is the way to do it cuz it worked for me".just something i read and found helpful.the proper one on one intruction is priceless and incomparable to any video or book one could ever read.IMHO
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:06 PM   #65
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When you get to your normal (too early) brake point just pin the throttle, close your eyes and count to three. Then open your eyes and react.
Youll probably only make it to a two count the first few times but thats ok for a beginner.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:11 PM   #66
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When you get to your normal (too early) brake point just pin the throttle, close your eyes and count to three. Then open your eyes and react.
Youll probably only make it to a two count the first few times but thats ok for a beginner.
Umm, no.

I agree with you Tom, about Code. I also went to one of his schools.
I just thought that his ideas about observing and analyzing made sense and that the book was worthwhile to learn some ideas.
It is true that reading will not replace seat time but having a plan of how you will use the seat time will help it to be more productive.
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:11 AM   #67
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Umm, no.

I agree with you Tom, about Code. I also went to one of his schools.
I just thought that his ideas about observing and analyzing made sense and that the book was worthwhile to learn some ideas.
It is true that reading will not replace seat time but having a plan of how you will use the seat time will help it to be more productive.
Yeah man, I hear ya, I was just commenting on the "seat time" thing more than anything else.

Riding on the track is an art of sorts, being a fast track day rider takes a certain amount of skill, knowledge, and experience; then racing by the same token is a whole 'nuther thing.

I always tell folks who want to "go faster" and ride with the fast guys or race that just like the analogy that "being fast on the street doesn't translate to being fast at the track"- the same goes for "being fast at a track day doesn't translate to being fast in a race."

Seat time is probably the single biggest method to improve speed and ability, the caveat to that is that it should be coupled with some process for learning and gaining good knowledgeable feedback to improve.

I think we all agree in whole or majority to each of the ideas posted here, just trying to illustrate that it's a package of different things, it's an ever evolving process of learning and experience that makes improvements
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:15 AM   #68
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yup

BTW nice photos Eviltwin, they illustrate very well how hanging off is beneficial.
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:18 AM   #69
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Creep up on it man, dont do it all at once. Pick a place to break on one lap and slowly inch forward from that point on and break later and later.
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:19 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again, not all riders will conform to this or have any of it apply. The only absolute in motorcycling is that there are no absolutes.

People that try to teach "a line" or teach "proper body position" as an absolute ("this is the way it's done"), leave out essential portions of the puzzle- namely the individual rider.

While it's true that some things help or can help, there is no "one right way" or absolute "wrong way". Some of the fastest riders in the world have what most would consider poor body position.

Instruction is a great way to learn, especially if you're being taught by folks with experience in the craft and have tons of laps after they had quality instruction of their own or follow a well adopted curriculum.

Not trying to knock anything, just sayin', riding position, among lots of other things in motorcycling, is something that ends up being very tailored to the individual eventually.


Very well said, exactly what Keith teaches.
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Old 07-13-2008, 12:41 AM   #71
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this what u do take two shot of patron tequila then some cocaine and you wont fear no man or corner

but on a real note it just take practice . you be way better the next time you get on the track
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:14 AM   #72
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Which track day companies have a method for training the instructors?

Written curriculum is a great start and I've seen some bike track day companies do that, the videos are very helpful as well. There is huge value in consistency of the vocabulary, a common understanding of what is taught at each level, criteria for promotion to the next level, and training around different approaches to convey the massive amount of information that new track riders want or need.

In the car world, I've seen a variety of approaches. Some companies select instructors primarily based on speed, consistency, safety and smoothness. I've seen others go as far as having yearly instructor try outs, certifications, and ongoing training to deal with not only the challenges on the track but also the instructors communication skills.

I've always had a great deal of respect for the folks that volunteer to instruct. I know it's a lot harder than it looks. This thread really highlights the different approaches instructors on the same topic "turn in speed". You see some instructors coaching predominately through more seat time, and others walking through different track riding techniques like late braking, vision, throttle management, and others getting even more cerebral. This makes for some very interesting and valuable reading.

Anyway, getting back to my original question.... which track day companies have a more formal method for training their instructors?
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:14 AM   #73
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Anyway, getting back to my original question.... which track day companies have a more formal method for training their instructors?
We're getting back in to it now since we have had a new crop of instructors join us over the past two years. For the last 7-8 years, we've had primarily the same instructors and they were all trained under the same curriculum and development process.

Now we're resuming that program with our newer instructors who are trained by our more experienced instructors (we've taken on probably 6 new instructors which is extremely rare for us).

Not exactly like how Code runs his instructor's instruction for example, but similar where the verbiage and "message" is consistent and curriculum is followed and embedded.

Our Lead Instructor sets the tone and gives the objectives, the instructors hone those objectives and skills training with the students.
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:48 AM   #74
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Is Godzuki your lead instructor? I can only imagine the tone he sets
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Old 07-13-2008, 04:52 PM   #75
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i think godzuki works for TTD.....
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Old 07-13-2008, 05:32 PM   #76
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Is Godzuki your lead instructor? I can only imagine the tone he sets
Ronnie Hay is our lead instructor. Our instructors have many, many years of riding/ racing/ teaching experience. Under Ronnie's guidance, things are getting ready to expand and take some new directions too.

Should be really cool for the remaining days and next year!
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Old 07-13-2008, 06:43 PM   #77
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Would love to ride with you at the track jody. I am always looking to improve. But I have never been told I was slow at corner speed. Matter of fact, some people thing i push it too hard in corners. Braking is where people get me. I am getting better think but I am really working on braking now to try to go in deeper and my times have gotten better doing it.

And I have heard the old 600 are better in corners than big bikes but I don't know if I believe that either. I bet the Spies is carrying every bit of corner speed on his 1000 as the 600 supersport guys do. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:13 PM   #78
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Would love to ride with you at the track jody. I am always looking to improve. But I have never been told I was slow at corner speed. Matter of fact, some people thing i push it too hard in corners. Braking is where people get me. I am getting better think but I am really working on braking now to try to go in deeper and my times have gotten better doing it.

And I have heard the old 600 are better in corners than big bikes but I don't know if I believe that either. I bet the Spies is carrying every bit of corner speed on his 1000 as the 600 supersport guys do. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.
Are you comparing yourself to ben?
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:34 PM   #79
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I just want to say something here! You people are awesome!!!!

I have never participated in a sport where soooo many people are willing to give advice and take the time to help a noob! I want to say thanks, I have read every single one of these posts. This is what I have gleamed from all of this:

1. Getting help is step number one. Following / Listening / being observed and then trying to adapt to the 'correct' form. Not to say there is 'a' standard but there are things to avoid, aka red flags. I have worked with LSTD and TTD, both have great folks and I have already learned so much from them and I don't intend to stop anytime soon.

2. Practice is very important (obviously). The more you do something the more comfortable you become with it; this doesn't just apply to motorcycling. I am going attend as many track days as the boss will let me, she is coming to TWS (Texas World Speedway) on the 19th, trying to get her involved. I personally think she would be better than me, she has my on the mantle after all.

3. Taking one corner and working that corner is a good idea. I think I may pick two corners at TWS (Texas World Speedway), split the track in half, like corner 3 and 12. I would say 7 but the uphill is yet another component I don't want to deal with while trying to break futher into the corner. 3 and 12 are good clean 90 degree righties and lefties.

4. Looking through the corner and NOT down at the entry point is huge. I know I look down, it is a bad habit, I am gonna work on it. I am gonna work with Tim on the 19th and watch his head at the entry, I want to see when he start looking through the corner. I have looked at some pro videos but it is hard to see an angle right behind them. They are so far above me I don't think it is relevant anyway. I need some track time behind the instructors paying attention to braking.

5. While there are many methods and many opinions on the correct method, I believe the one that works for you is the best method to use. Which one that is that for me? if I know at this point. However, I trust the folks at LSTD and TTD and they have my full attention and respect on that track. For that matter I am eyes and ears open, I'll take all the advice your willing to dish my way! I'll even throw you a beer or two after the day is over! But until I feel like trying my own ideas or Kieth Code is on a bike in front of me telling me something else I really don't see me branching out much :-) I respect these authors and ex-pros and I bet they are awesome. Teaching is so much more than just material though, it is a dynamic expierience between a teacher and a student. Different methods work for different people, without that one-on-one interaction there is no text in the world that can have the same impact. That being said, as an engineer, math is math and there are plenty to learn from books. I just don't see many books out there that can teach you style, the results may be the same but how I get there may be different. Books can't account for that, nor can the author writing them.

6. Attitude, scratch that, a possitive attitude is critical. If you are tense and not having fun your probably going to ride tense and not have fun. The best rides I had at TWS (Texas World Speedway) and ECR (the only two track days I have attended), where NOT worrying about speed and just relaxing. I actually was much faster at the end of both days. I got the lap timer, i wasn't competing with it, just wanted to track my progress. Honestly, i didn't pay much attention to it but at the end of the day it was nice to see the progress.

I probably left somthing important out but I am beat and the boss is rattling my from the mantle.

l8r and thanks again, you people are really cool! I can't wait to meet some of you in person!
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:09 AM   #80
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Are you comparing yourself to ben?
No, I wish I could. But I am just saying that a litre bike can carry the same corner speed that a 600 can.
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