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Old 07-11-2008, 04:09 PM   #41
Timme'
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrock View Post
another good pointer that I overlooked...Thanks Curt.
Cool, so the logical next question is when do you start looking into the corner? If I am mentally thinking about turn 3 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) (classic right hand 90) how far from the corner are you looking through it? 20 yards? I can see there would be a natural place to start, but I bet you use reference points to know when. I am certainly a reference rider, i use them all the time, maybe i should use my reference points to not only tell me when to brake but when to start looking through the corner?

I bet if I follow some of the instructors and watch their heads I can tell when they do it. I typically don't pay attention to when and where they look, I know I look through the corner, just after I start turning not before. I bet this helps me a lot.

Thanks guys!
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:12 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsuki View Post
come see me at TWS (Texas World Speedway). I'll take you out two up and show you just how late you can brake

OOOOHH. Sounds cozy. Have you got a single female instructor that will teach me late braking?
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:12 PM   #43
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seat time....the speed will come sooner than never
+1 and ur thinkn bout it 2 much just have fun dont worry bout it
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:12 PM   #44
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come see me at TWS (Texas World Speedway). I'll take you out two up and show you just how late you can brake
Read my next post... exactly what I had in mind my brotha! I am gonna watch your head this time and see when and where you are looking as you start braking! I always look down right when I turn in

Show me the way

Now I am all juiced up about next weekend again!
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by jrock View Post
took me awhile to overcome the fear of going into a corner too hot. But coming out and asking is the best thing to do....ask the instructors at your next track day and try working on braking deeper and deeper into a specific corner .. Work that corner (s) till you feel confident enough to move on to the next. It worked for me...So just try and good luck.
In this case, perhaps braking earlier might help. On bikes, just like in cars, late braking causes driver/rider to experience everything very, very quickly. If you can actually slow the turning sequence down, you won't feel as rushed and panicky in the turns. Larry, Allan (mr. whoopie) and so many other folks at the track have pounded into me the following sequence for turns. BTW, this is very similar to the sequence for cars. First, adjust your body into the appropriate position for the turn; next, smoothly squeeze the front brake; downshift if appropriate, and finally get back on the throttle. I used to get all of my braking done a little early so I could calmly downshift and be back on the throttle (even if it's just a little maintenance throttle) as I'm approaching the apex. From apex to track out, I roll on the throttle smoothly but also as quickly as I can without running out of track. I'm now trail braking into the turns, sometimes almost to the apex and then rolling on the throttle. Again, another recommendation from the fast guys.

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Old 07-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #46
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Quote:
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OOOOHH. Sounds cozy. Have you got a single female instructor that will teach me late braking?
jen
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Timme' View Post
Cool, so the logical next question is when do you start looking into the corner? If I am mentally thinking about turn 3 at TWS (Texas World Speedway) (classic right hand 90) how far from the corner are you looking through it? 20 yards? I can see there would be a natural place to start, but I bet you use reference points to know when. I am certainly a reference rider, i use them all the time, maybe i should use my reference points to not only tell me when to brake but when to start looking through the corner?

I bet if I follow some of the instructors and watch their heads I can tell when they do it. I typically don't pay attention to when and where they look, I know I look through the corner, just after I start turning not before. I bet this helps me a lot.

Thanks guys!
Start looking through the turn as early as you possibly can. Turns out that your peripheral vision is much better than most riders/drivers expect. You can see what is happening in front of the bike easily even when you are looking down track. It's not usual for me to be looking through the turn even before braking. This is something that helps me recognize when to turn in and exactly how much is required. You get the additional information because you can see the path or the "line" through the turn.

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Old 07-11-2008, 04:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
Start looking through the turn as early as you possibly can. Turns out that your peripheral vision is much better than most riders/drivers expect. You can see what is happening in front of the bike easily even when you are looking down track. It's not usual for me to be looking through the turn even before braking. This is something that helps me recognize when to turn in and exactly how much is required. You get the additional information because you can see the path or the "line" through the turn.
Sweet, that just didn't register for me before. Tim and other folks said to look through the turn and I do but not BEFORE I turn. I am gonna work with Tim on the 19th and watch his head!

Thanks so much for the information, this is really helpful stuff for a noob. There are so many data points to take in an react to. You would think that if you ride a bike these would be natural, turns out not so much. Some of them are but others are very un-natural feeling at first.

Fun stuff, you guys are awesome for taking the time to explain this! Thanks!
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:35 PM   #49
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I'm a little lucky in that I instructed in cars for so long. So much of it carries over, that I've been able to pick up riding on the track a little more easily.

See you on the 19th.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:50 PM   #50
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Quote:
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jen
You guys don't be picking on Jen! Thats my girl! She was soooo freaking awesome to me at ECR!

She went above and beyond to make me fell cozy
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:44 PM   #51
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Just like everyone else has said, it's just seat time. The brakes are by FAR my weakest point of riding and I'm still asking myself the same questions you are... it's just practice, and knowing that the bike is gonna stick; trust in the front end.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:49 PM   #52
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Benn there bro, its all about seat time, before you know it you will start to see other new guys doing the samething and you will then realize that you don't anymore. Just give it time.
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Old 07-11-2008, 08:52 PM   #53
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Before you know it you will see noobs doing it then you will realize that you were in the same boat at one time and will help them overcome also, oh and trust your tires. Its easy to look back at the trackday at the end and say what you should have done. Seat time is also a key factor.
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:01 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godsuki View Post
come see me at TWS (Texas World Speedway). I'll take you out two up and show you just how late you can brake
we'll just call u Timmy Mamola
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Old 07-12-2008, 07:08 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxerbill View Post
I don't know if I agree with that. I think corner speed between the really fast people and regular trackdayers that ride expert ain't that much different. I think really fast people know how to brake really reeally late and don't coast at all is the reason they are faster.

id like to ride on the track with u sumtime mr. bill. i think id change ur theory on that one

Small bikes I don't know if I agree with that either. I did alot better on my 1000 than I did on my 750 mainly because I was faster on the coners than alot of 1000's but they were faster down the straight. When I got a 1000 it fixed that problem.

i believe u have it all wrong once again.... how about u stand in a corner with a rader gun sumtime. ill give it a few runs on my thousand first, then i take a few on a 600. the corner speeds with a 600 are gonna be a little quiker... cause they are smaller/lighter and more nimble. therefore they are easier to push thru the corner faster
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:21 PM   #56
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Quote:
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werd
+1

i was also a victim to turn 3 at ECR.
i finally got turn 1 and 2 figured out which lead to greater speed out of 1-2 combo.
i rushed into the brakes as i crested the hill when the suspension was unloaded.
bike took a dive and the rear locked up(down shifted before entry).
stood the bike up and went straight to save it,jumped the ditch,flipped a U-turn and got back on track.
as far as "knowing" when to start turning in,i think every turn will be different.
specially since every turn has a few "fast" lines.
i gained alot when i followed Larry Myers at MSR-C.
i was already comfy on that track and he showed me the late braking points.
tryed to find someone at ECR with TTD but was not successful..... .
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Old 07-12-2008, 06:26 PM   #57
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You think you need more because your getting scared. Dont scare yourself and youll get quicker. Open up your lines and look through the turns. Brake a hair earlier but very lightly. You body will relax once you feel the bike slowing down hair and youll know your the one in control of the bike.
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Old 07-12-2008, 08:46 PM   #58
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I'm gonna have to disagree with the folks who are saying it just seat time. While obviously more practice is better than less...
I just started re-reading A Twist of The Wrist.

Keith Code addresses EXACTLY the stuff you are talking about. He says that you have to first know what you are doing right so that you can repeat it.
Once you understand the things you are doing right then you can start building on that to improve.
I can tell you are well on your way because of how you talk about observing what you are doing. Analyzing and adapting. That's how you improve.
Endlessly repeating the same mistakes will only lead to trying to force yourself to go faster. That is why I am saying it takes more than just seat time.
You keep going the way you are and you will be just fine.

Oh, if you haven't, read Twist of the Wrist. It's amazing what you can learn from it.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:24 PM   #59
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
I'm gonna have to disagree with the folks who are saying it just seat time. While obviously more practice is better than less...
I just started re-reading A Twist of The Wrist.

Keith Code addresses EXACTLY the stuff you are talking about. He says that you have to first know what you are doing right so that you can repeat it.
Once you understand the things you are doing right then you can start building on that to improve.
I can tell you are well on your way because of how you talk about observing what you are doing. Analyzing and adapting. That's how you improve.
Endlessly repeating the same mistakes will only lead to trying to force yourself to go faster. That is why I am saying it takes more than just seat time.
You keep going the way you are and you will be just fine.

Oh, if you haven't, read Twist of the Wrist. It's amazing what you can learn from it.
While I agree with a lot of what Code teaches, and have been to his school in the past, he's just one person's opinion- albeit a very good one.

It's true that with seat time and experience with faster riders that your corner speed will increase.

Focusing on the basics and working drills that are taught/ read/ suggested is a great way to get faster too. Once you become proficient, speed comes with it.

I usually tell folks to stick with one corner or one section of track at a time, and don't work so hard; meaning if you're having a hard time getting through a corner, pick that corner to work on until you get it dialed in, but don't over work yourself work too hard to get through it. Make sure you're relaxed (a good drill with ways to gauge how well you're doing like paying attention to your elbows, grip, etc) and concentrate on being smooth. Tense and "un-smooth" with corner entry, apex, exit, makes for a tough day.

You'll get it- it doesn't happen over night.
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Old 07-12-2008, 09:27 PM   #60
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OK THIS IS NOT WRITTEN BY ME
TAKE FOR WHAT ITS WORTH........ENJOY

Ok i see lots of times peope asking, wanting to learn, people who sometimes don't have the money to spend for a school (you should try though) or people who don't have anyone to saw them (the proper way).
I wrotte this small article intended to provide a little info regarding body positioning. I will also try to get some images for it as well. Enjoy.

So we always hear about proper riding position and knee dragging and new riders get even more confused.

Purpose of this small article is to help rider (new, more experienced it doesn't make a difference) understand proper riding position on your bike.

What is proper riding position? And who the does judge what your riding position should be? Well the judge is physics and the how we are just going to analyze.

How many times have you approached a turn and felt frozen started thinking of traction, speed, body positioning and a of a deal of other things. Did that moment make you think that you are not going to make it through? If it did (if you say no…you are probably lying to yourself or you haven’t….ridden yet) don’t be worried its absolutely normal to get a scare, even experienced riders do have them time to time (try checking a few magazine videos, I know of a couple where you can hear the breathing from inside helmet cameras) it’s how your mind reacts to a danger situation and how it tries to prepare your body for something that might go wrong.

The first and most basic things you need to understand and get really familiar before moving to body positioning is throttle control, braking, countersteering and overcoming your fears the rest such as body positioning and cornering art (lines, speed, time saving techniques) are not to be experiment with if you haven’t got familiar with those basic issues. Believe me it might be fancy getting outside the bike and trying to lean all nice and like a motogp star but it ain’t of any help if you don’t know how your throttle works and how it affects suspension, corner speed and traction control.

If you want to learn more regarding those things I would suggest you attend a bike school (something like CSS) it is really worth the money even if you think that you have mastered these techniques (just ask a few professional riders).

Now on to body positioning, the first and most important aspect of cornering is to understand what exactly affects a motorcycle while cornering either at the start or the middle or even the exit of a corner.

So let’s see some important factors regarding cornering:






Your bike is designed to handle a distribution of load, you don’t have to know physics to understand that most of the weight distribution under extreme conditions should be handled by the rear part of your motorcycle, just look at the tires, the small front and the huge rear state this. Technically speaking a bike is working correctly while cornering when the weight distribution is around 30-40% at the front part and 60-70% at the rear this weight distribution is directly affected by throttle and brake handling (thus the mentioning of them previously).
A bike turns with the countersteering technique, this roughly (my intension is not to present what countersteering is through physics laws –we can do that on a different thread- ) means that when you turn you apply gentle pressure to the handlebars to the opposite direction (you want to turn left, you apply pressure –watch it pressure, not pulling- to the left clipon and vice versa).
You use the knee as a lean angle indicator, ok it’s nice dragging the knee down and gives a more talented “look” to the rider, but the knee is there only as an extra (and free) instrument, it tells you how much lean angle you have at the moment, usually us mortal riders will stop leaning after the knee has touched the ground.
Handlebars are for steering, they are not for holding on them, this is vital and crucial to understand, and you use the clipons as levellers for pushing you don’t rest your body weights on them.
The heaviest part of your body is your torso and your head, this is another crucial factor, you need to remember that hanging off does not mean moving your outside the seat, it means moving your body I see more and more often people hanging off but only their leg is sticking outside the bike, this is wrong. I know you have seen it done from MotoGP riders but you aint got neither their skills (maybe some of you…but you wouldn’t be reading this) neither the motorcycle parts (suspension, tires) nor we are talking about different circumstances and different techniques.
Chicken stripes (duh) are not an indicator that you are leaning correctly, they are an indicator of your lean angle, if you don’t move your weight to the inside of the turn and your tires have no chicken strips it means that you have higher chances of crashing from a rider who positions his body correctly for a corner.
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