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View Poll Results: Gear Law & Helmet Law
SHOULD BE required for everyones benefit and overall safety of motorcycling community 44 50.00%
SHOULD NOT required, everyeone should be free to ride without gear or helmets 40 45.45%
I really don't know where I stand, would have to hear the arguments before deciding 4 4.55%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2008, 08:37 AM   #1
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Discussion Regarding Helmet Law & Gear Law

I know this will sprawl over 20 pages of flaming debate. Only rules for this thread are:

1. Don't let it get personal. It's a forum debate/discussion, NOT someone personally insulting you. Respond to them with counter arguments, facts, or ideas.

2. Keep out trolling comments on this and only post replies or substantial (more than 4-5 sentence answers) if possible to avoid pages of "yes i agree" "thumbs up" etc.

3. KEEP IT FROM FLAMING. IT'S A DEBATE. Argue logic and reason, not personal insults.

4. Try to write it as if you are addressing your congressman or lobbyist. I'd like to see what your perspective is as you would explain to a lawmaker or something with influence.



Question to pose:

What would be the benefits and cons of REQUIRING full gear and helmet wearing by all motorcyclists, in the same way that many states have a seatbelt law. Pretend that if legalized you could face hefty fines and tickets, and with enough repeat violations suspension of your license. It would not be a money making tool, with a slap on the wrist, but significant. What would you say when this law was proposed in congress that would apply to all states. What would your point be to your congressman or lobbyist?



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Old 06-28-2008, 08:41 AM   #2
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There are so many new riders every year i think that there should be some sort of rules in place
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:45 AM   #3
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I believe with a "tiered" licensing system, a lot of the "squidly" tendencies of new motorcyclists will be eliminated. So the rule proposed by op will be unnecessary.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:47 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherub View Post
There are so many new riders every year i think that there should be some sort of rules in place
and according to post request:

how would you pose this to your congressman? General statement, back up with some specifics so also a new rider would understand why you would support "limiting their choices"
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07SLVRCBR View Post
I believe with a "tiered" licensing system, a lot of the "squidly" tendencies of new motorcyclists will be eliminated. So the rule proposed by op will be unnecessary.
True tiered or that hybrid stuff thier trying in other states?
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It makes me cry, but real tears not the ones out of my like usual.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07SLVRCBR View Post
I believe with a "tiered" licensing system, a lot of the "squidly" tendencies of new motorcyclists will be eliminated. So the rule proposed by op will be unnecessary.
Good, more specifics. Remember, pose this to a congressman, or "nonbiker" so that they would understand WHY you want to "limit their voters freedom of choice"

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Old 06-28-2008, 08:52 AM   #7
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I am willing to bet that I will get flamed for this (by the other half.)

I am all for rules and regulations to be put into place.

1.4 wheeled vehicles have them for their own safety,
2.18 wheelers and other commercial vehicles have them for their own safety.
3. Power and sail boats have then.

Therefore, motorcycle and scooter should have similar rules and regulations as well.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa_Claire View Post
I am willing to bet that I will get flamed for this (by the other half.)
Who cares about that numbskull??? lol


To the questions addressed to me: It's difficult to approach that scenario, because of the "freedoms" we Americans have (assumed). If you attempt to take some decisions away from the potential buyer, that also affects manufactors.
I'm not exactly sure how the tiered stuff works in Japan vs England vs some states. However, I firmly believe if you're brought up in a learning atmosphere, then you have learned the whole aspect of riding (safety included).
People are learned when they drive to adjust mirrors, use safety belts, approach situations with cautions, etc. It seems if motorcyclists are just given a license when they want and are free to go. I don't think that's the way to approach that, given the dangers associated with motorcycles.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specterunseen View Post
and according to post request:

how would you pose this to your congressman? General statement, back up with some specifics so also a new rider would understand why you would support "limiting their choices"
why we need to have it Here(quick search will lead you to a number of statistics). Proposed a manditory helmet law.
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Quote:
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It makes me cry, but real tears not the ones out of my like usual.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07SLVRCBR View Post
Who cares about that numbskull??? lol
The sad thing is that he literally has a numb skull because of it.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherub View Post
why we need to have it Here(quick search will lead you to a number of statistics). Proposed a manditory helmet law.
Thank you for the sobering data.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:10 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherub View Post
why we need to have it Here(quick search will lead you to a number of statistics). Proposed a manditory helmet law.
to further expound on the reasoning on the ney sayers. Seat belts are a manditory safty device, has it taken away our freedom to choose or saved lives? I equate the seat belt to helmets its a safty device that would save lives.
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Quote:
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It makes me cry, but real tears not the ones out of my like usual.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:14 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07SLVRCBR View Post
Who cares about that numbskull??? lol


To the questions addressed to me: It's difficult to approach that scenario, because of the "freedoms" we Americans have (assumed). If you attempt to take some decisions away from the potential buyer, that also affects manufactors.
I'm not exactly sure how the tiered stuff works in Japan vs England vs some states. However, I firmly believe if you're brought up in a learning atmosphere, then you have learned the whole aspect of riding (safety included).
People are learned when they drive to adjust mirrors, use safety belts, approach situations with cautions, etc. It seems if motorcyclists are just given a license when they want and are free to go. I don't think that's the way to approach that, given the dangers associated with motorcycles.

I agree that its really easy to get your license here. I got mine after MSF for 2 days, and taking a written test. I wasn't safe on the road for a few weeks easy, and after that still had essential skills to sharpen that I was weak on.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:21 AM   #14
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I agree. MSF does not prepare you for riding as some would have you believe. Yet through the hysteria surrounding it, new riders feel that MSF automatically turns then into a 10 percent'er. As I do understand that it is not the instructors' fault and rather the students', I do also believe that the system is flawed.
I remember drivers education being much more through than MSF yet both hand out licenses.

This does not mean that MSF should be avoided because something is better than nothing.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:21 AM   #15
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:21 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa_Claire View Post
I am willing to bet that I will get flamed for this (by the other half.)

I am all for rules and regulations to be put into place.

1.4 wheeled vehicles have them for their own safety,
2.18 wheelers and other commercial vehicles have them for their own safety.
3. Power and sail boats have then.

Therefore, motorcycle and scooter should have similar rules and regulations as well.
on the suject at hand, not just rules and regulations, seatbelts are not required in vehicles that have more than 2 rear wheels and have a maximum rated carrying capacity of 1 ton or over, power boats and sail boats don't have seatbelts at all with some exceptions.

now my thinking on helmets and gear, I personally wear a helmet all the time and gloves, not always my jacket(yea I know squidly of me) do helmets save lives yes they do and they do reduce the ammount of injury at times that occurs during a collision, however I have seen nothing that tells me in any valid study(cdc junk science doesn't count) that helmets actually make much difference in the eventual outcome of a fatal motorcycle collision, they may save the life of said individual but let me pose this question in response

the collision occurs in both scenerios at what is a potentially fatal speed, with the helmet we have a long term burden to the healthcare system due to the invdividual(not victim) being a quadraplegic with a minimal interaction to his/her surroundings and family that needs long term skilled nursing care and continual hospitalization for complications of treatment to sustain life

without the helmet we have a corpse on the ground, no long term care costs no continued hospitalization costs. the question being are we being conceited to attempt to subject somone to a life of being a quad, or worse being a live body with no one home(vegatative state) or should we just let them die.

if it were a simple matter of economics then the latter would be preferable, the reason I put it this way is that the studies by CDC and US DOT only consider the outcome of alive vs dead at the end of initial hospitalization, they don't consider the long term costs to the healthcare system,family or the governmental agencies that provide indigent care or underinsured/uninsured care.

No I am not trying to be callus or cold just pragmatic, both options suck they both cause emotional pain to the family, healthcare workers and a burden on the healthcare system.

As far as helping to reduce the severity of non potentially fatal collisions they do have merits but no real studies have been done on this part of it, it has always been taken for granted that they do reduce the ammount/potential of head injury for low speed and some medium speed collisions.

I think that this question runs too deep into a philisophical area to be a straight forward answer, we have to take the upbringing and belief system of each individual into consideration.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:23 AM   #17
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What I would propose will not control you, but an educated individual will most likely make sound decisions regarding their safety.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP171 View Post
on the suject at hand, not just rules and regulations, seatbelts are not required in vehicles that have more than 2 rear wheels and have a maximum rated carrying capacity of 1 ton or over, power boats and sail boats don't have seatbelts at all with some exceptions.
Neither do motorcycles. They do however, have rules and regulations regarding safe operating procedures, whatever they may be.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:29 AM   #19
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I find it disturbing that the "should not" is actually ahead.

Must be some cruiser squids.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:31 AM   #20
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agreed Melissa but lets look at just the laws requiring active and passive safety devices.
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