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Old 06-17-2008, 03:04 PM   #201
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well based on this logic, a more experienced driver in a car, truck, boat etc.. would never have an accident... i mean if they had just listened to you and started out with a VW bug they would have never been harmed...


If someone started out with something more akin to a VW bug as opposed to shoved out on the street with a testarosa then my example holds.


Of course, understanding that and my original statement requires that you don't have your head shoved so far up your that you can see your own stomach.


There's a correlation to insurance $ for teens in camaro's, mustangs vs civic's, station wagons etc too.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:04 PM   #202
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well thats not for you to decide is it...?
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:05 PM   #203
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:05 PM   #204
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rx, you never stated your reasons for the 250 im curious.......
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:05 PM   #205
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Ok, this thread officially turned to poo. :/:
 
Old 06-17-2008, 03:06 PM   #206
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well based on this logic, a more experienced driver in a car, truck, boat etc.. would never have an accident... i mean if they had just listened to you and started out with a VW bug they would have never been harmed...
I've seen my fair share of teens driving trucks and SUVs worse than a old chinese lady ( ... I think I'm gonna get banned for that one)... I think there's more than enough data out there to show that teenaged drivers are one of the higher percentages of accidents ... which is why I'm always wondering why there are parents out there buy sports cars for their 16 year olds.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:06 PM   #207
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the difference between a 250 and a 600 is a nice gap for a beginner. Size isn't the issue, power is. i wouldn't want my child getting a camaro as a first car.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:06 PM   #208
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i'll say it again for the cheap seats... APTITUDE AND ATTITUDE.. therefore it doesnt matter what cc bike your on..
That's why we have tests, and training and why intelligent people do't recommend high performance bikes for newbs.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:06 PM   #209
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rx, you never stated your reasons for the 250 im curious.......
nobody could give me any reasons why a 600 is a great starter bike, well 1 guy did, read my response, some answers lie in that.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:08 PM   #210
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If someone started out with something more akin to a VW bug as opposed to shoved out on the street with a testarosa then my example holds.


Of course, understanding that and my original statement requires that you don't have your head shoved so far up your that you can see you own stomach.
well i can easily see how your form of communication should be widely accepted amongst those seeking knowledge..

i think most of you are overlooking the simple facts.. most young people getting into riding dont have a lot of money so they get into it on what they can afford.. generally the 600cc range.. could that possibly explain why ins. and stats are off the scale for that age group in that cc range?
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:08 PM   #211
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ryhme with out reason isn't very poetical.

rx,
guess ur gonna hold the secrets inside huh?

, and i thought i met the old wise man who would lead me to liberty and enlightenment! :(
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:10 PM   #212
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ryhme with out reason isn't very poetical.

rx,
guess ur gonna hold the secrets inside huh?

, and i thought i met the old wise man who would lead me to liberty and enlightenment! :(
There is a multi-page sticky from Racer X http://www.motohouston.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2576
 
Old 06-17-2008, 03:10 PM   #213
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well i can easily see how your form of communication should be widely accepted amongst those seeking knowledge..

i think most of you are overlooking the simple facts.. most young people getting into riding dont have a lot of money so they get into it on what they can afford.. generally the 600cc range.. could that possibly explain why ins. and stats are off the scale for that age group in that cc range?
you think a $6-7-8k 600 is easier to afford then a $4k (TOPS) for a 250

how about buy a used 250 for say $2500 and ride it a yr and sell if for $2200-2300, try that w/ a 600, it'll be alot more then a $100-200 loss.

from the link waerlogo posted

"This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue"
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:12 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEAN LADEN View Post
ryhme with out reason isn't very poetical.

rx,
guess ur gonna hold the secrets inside huh?

, and i thought i met the old wise man who would lead me to liberty and enlightenment! :(



You did, but you just didnt recognize me.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:14 PM   #215
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that gixxer is a scam but i would recomend u buying a 600 cause i dont like the kawi 250 its too weak
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:14 PM   #216
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nope, but we can all give our $.02
then your working on a small business loan.....
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:14 PM   #217
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Start on a 250, you won't regret it. If you get bored of it you can always move to a bigger bike. If you start on a 600, you will still have a blast, but IF in the event you do happen to crash (knock on wood), and it is bad, you may find yourself saying 'what if i had started on a 250', in actuality your decision may have not even mattered, but there could still be doubts because you know you'd taken a risk. I know when I crashed I was thankful I was on a 250, because I'm quite sure I would've been going faster on a 600 and it would've been worse.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:16 PM   #218
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[/SIZE]


You did, but you just didnt recognize me.


how is that possible on that bright green bike with neon yellow riding suit. i think every old lady with cataracts seen you too!!!!
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:17 PM   #219
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That's why we have tests, and training and why intelligent people do't recommend high performance bikes for newbs.
So these tests determine aptitude and attitude? If so I guess your telling me that these tests are only rated up to a skill level equivalent to a 250?

Guess we need to change the tests....
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:17 PM   #220
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The Final Equation

We've covered the reasons why people justify or want to get a 600cc sportbike. But we have one more thing to answer and it is simple: What makes these bad bikes to start on?

Sportbikes are built as racing machines, pure and simple. They are built in response to guidelines laid down by racing bodies for a particular class and made to win races in that class. Ducati, for example, spends most of their existence building bikes to win races. Since 1950, Ducati was always a racing bike manufacturer first and their products reflected that philosophy. A by-product of winning races is the fact that people see those winning machines and want to ride them (if you're going to ride, you might as well ride the best as it goes). It didn't take the motorcycle manufacturers long to figure out that there was a market demand for these machines and reacted accordingly.

Sportbikes represent a technological arms race. This has really become apparent in the past 5-10 years where new models eclipse last years models with better performance and capability with each passing year. To compare a 1989 Honda CBR600F Hurricane (the original CBR) to a 2003 CBR600RR is pointless. There is no comparison except in the model designation showing a distant family relation. The new CBR is lighter by at least 50 pounds and packs 30 percent more power, handling and braking ability that makes the original CBR look like a ponderous dinosaur. But just because that original CBR dinosaur has been eclipsed doesn't make it any more tamable. If anything, older sportbikes are far more temperamental than the descendants.

Consider the fact that this year a privateer (independent racer) bought a Yamaha YZF-R1 off the showroom floor, took off the lights and mirrors, added a race belly pan, exhaust and tires and placed in the top ten at the AMA Superbike race at Daytona. The bike was two weeks off the floor and basically stock (the modifications with the exception of the pipe are required). Since factory sponsored teams tend to take the top slots, any privateer that can break in the top ten is doing well by anyone's definition.

Because sportbikes (and especially 600s since they compete in the most populous racing class out there) are designed first as racing machines, they are built with handling, acceleration and speed in mind. Not just one quality at the expense of others but all of them in abundance! Centralizing the mass of the bike at the center of gravity (CoG) gives the bike neutral stability. The high riding position and the perching of the rider over the CoG gives the bike the ability to flick over rapidly.

The steering geometry and short wheelbase of these bikes is designed to provide short and rapid directional changes. Combined with the higher CoG and mass centralization, the steering setup is what gives sportbikes their amazing turning ability.

Engine designs vary but have settled on V-twins and inline fours as the preferred choices. The sportbike V-twins are liquid-cooled, high-rpm engines designed to generate massive torque (hence acceleration) and power in the mid-range of their design limits. Witness the success of Nicky Hayden and Miquel Duhamel on the Honda RC51 in AMA Superbike as testament to the massive grunt these engines put out. So potent in fact that the AMA changed the rules for the following season to even the odds between the V-twins and inline fours. The inline four equipped bikes simply couldn't outpower the twins on curvy portions of the race circuit.

The inline four is by far the most common engine layout in sportbikes including all 600cc sport designs (the Ducati 620SS has a V-twin but is air-cooled and the bike is not a racing machine). All of the sportbikes that new riders after are equipped with this engine design. High-rpm capability (redlines vary between 11K and 16K rpm), liquid cooled and designed to produce peak power at very high rpms. The inline four delivers smooth and increasing power as the throttle is opened. Power tends to build to the peak point, at which power the engine will tend to surge to peak power and fall off as the peak point is crossed. Although nowhere near as bad as a race-tuned two-stroke (which literally double their horsepower as the engine transitions to peak power), the engine displays its roots as a racing thoroughbred.

A 1mm or 1/16 of an inch twist of the throttle can easily result in a 2000-4000rpm jump. You can be cruising along at a sedate 4000rpm, hit a pothole and suddenly find the bike surging forward with the front end getting light at 7000rpm. Definitely unnerving the first time you experience it.

And then there are the brakes. Braking technology has gotten progressively more potent over the past ten years. Even older sportbikes sport twin disc setups with two or four piston calipers designed to get these bikes down from 150mph to 60mph as quickly as possible. Current generation bikes are unreal. These brakes have grown to six piston calipers with massive discs whose sole job is to slow a 180mph missile down to corner speed in the shortest distance possible. If you ever watch racers, notice that they tend to only use two fingers to brake. They don't need anymore than that. The brakes are almost too powerful. And accidents happen on the track a lot due to bad or late braking.

All of these qualities produce an exquisite riding machine. The problem is, all of these qualities are designed to operate at extremes since it is under extreme conditions that these bikes are intended to operate. For the street, these capabilities are overkill. A hard squeeze of the front brake on the street can easily get a sportbike to lock its front wheel. Same applies to an over-aggressive stomp on the rear brake. No matter which way you slice it, highsides hurt.

The powerful engine can literally get you from 0 to 45mph in the blink of an eye in first gear. Come up one gear and you can be at 70mph with the slightest drop of your wrist. Add in one bump at speed without knowing what the throttle is going to do and suddenly you aren't at 70mph anymore. You're at 90+ mph and the bike is tickling its "sweet spot". At this speed, you better not panic. If you botch the slowdown from this error (either by a rapid rolloff or a shift), you can find yourself in serious trouble.

The handling capabilities of sportbikes actually make them wonderful machines to ride once you are used to thinking where you want to go. This actually gives them great beginner qualities (if on the extreme end). The downside is this perfect handling is slaved to amazing power on tap and the brakes that can back it off just as quickly.

In the final equation, a 600cc sportbike is little more than a racing machine with street parts bolted on. They aren't designed for street use; they are adapted to it. But no compromises are made in that transition. The same R6, GSX-R600, ZX-6RR or CBR600RR you can buy off the showroom floor can be converted in an afternoon, be at the track the next day and wind up winning races. And the sportbikes from 10 years ago were the R6s, Gixxers, Ninjas and CBRs of their day. They possessed the same qualities that their modern descendants do just not with the same maximums. Even today on the street, a 15 year old sportbike is little different than its 2003 cousin. The 2003 might accelerate quicker, stop shorter and lean farther but at the speeds us mortals ride at, there will be little difference.

Sportbike technology has gone an amazing distance in twenty years. Performance and ability has almost doubled in that time. But rider ability has not and a new rider from 20 years ago would still have the same challenges then as a new rider would today on an R6.

Sportbike form evolved to meets its function: to win races. Always has, always will. And riders will after these technological marvels for that reason. Can you start out on one? Yes. But you can also pretend to be a GP racer on a smaller sportbike that gives up nothing to its bigger brothers where most of us spend our riding days. It is always more satisfying to smoke a 600cc or 1000cc sportbike in the twisties on a Ninja 250 or GS500 than a bigger bike.

But when you are ready to answer the call of the Supersport, they will be waiting for you and you'll be better off having honed your skills on the smaller sportbike. Supersports are not beginner bikes. But they make great second and third bikes.

The choice is yours. make a smart one, because it will impact your life
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