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Old 05-05-2008, 10:44 AM   #61
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Old 05-05-2008, 11:36 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azylum View Post
fact is that over 90% of accidents involving motorcyclists is due to rider error--its the riders fault. ill take out a mirror or two if a cage acts a fool, but a gun is never the answer. you shoot a moving cage, you are putting EVERYONE within half a mile (or more) in mortal danger. would you feel good about killing a child walking on a side walk? at least you taught that cager a lesson, right?
Just curious, what fact? Precisely...

Perhaps in single vehicle crashes involving Motorcycles...

I'll stay on the topic of this post by quoting statistics concerning 2 vehicle crashes involving a car and motorcycle. I found this info on the web which are results of studies performed by gov't agencies, not my opinion.

Depending on the source, I found that between 1/3 to 2/3 of accidents involving a car/truck etc, with a motorcycle was caused by the car not yielding the right of way to the motorcycle.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810834.PDF

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:43 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tz420 View Post
maybe, just maybe, if you're rockin a 91' yammie the cagers' ain't your first concern.
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solyjr View Post
Just curious, what fact? Precisely...

Perhaps in single vehicle crashes involving Motorcycles...

I'll stay on the topic of this post by quoting statistics concerning 2 vehicle crashes involving a car and motorcycle. I found this info on the web which are results of studies performed by gov't agencies, not my opinion.

Depending on the source, I found that between 1/3 to 2/3 of accidents involving a car/truck etc, with a motorcycle was caused by the car not yielding the right of way to the motorcycle.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810834.PDF

http://www.motorcycle-accidents.com/pages/stats.html
From your first link...


"Nearly 3/4 of the crashed the Mc was recorded as the striking vehicle"
"Nearly 1/4 (24%) had invalid licenses (8% for cagers)"
"27% were speeding at the time of the crash (4% cagers)"

Front to side crashes? 78% Mc the striking vechicle
Head on? 55% mc the striking vehicle
Rear-Ended? 68% Mc Striking vehicle

49% of the riders had a previous violation at the time of the accident.


From the 2nd link?

"4. In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide out and fall due to over braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering."


"7. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision."

"22. T he motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."

"23. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly under represented in the accident data."

"26. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over brake and skid the rear wheel, and under brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to counter steer and swerve was essentially absent."

"53. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property."
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Old 05-05-2008, 08:12 PM   #65
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sounds like rider error to me...
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:10 AM   #66
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Since someone clearly is not able to comprehend my previous post… I’m not disputing single vehicle(motorcycle) accidents. I’m making references to 2 vehicle accidents, one a cager one a motorcyclist.
Again I will stay on topic of 2 vehicle accidents, one of which is a car, the other a motorcycle. Since it doesn't take a scientist to figure out that an accident involving 1 vehicle, motorcycle or otherwise, will in large be due to operator error. The topic here is cagers vs. motorcycle...

If you as a motorcyclist, are proceeding straight through an intersection, and a cager coming from the opposite direction decides to make a left turn, or u turn:
A. Without looking
B. Illegally
C. Misjudging the time he/she has to make the turn/u turn
Cuts in front of the motorcycle, the motorcycle will obviously be the striking vehicle. With that said, does that mean the motorcycle was at fault or the one in err? Also ask yourself, where is the motorcycle going to strike the car? Head on, side impact, or rear impact? it depends on how far into the turn/u turn the cager is. even if the motorcyclist was speeding, attributing to the crash, it still was not his/her fault...
It is my understanding, that this is the most common accident involving a cager and a motorcycle.

If a car decides to cut over 3 lanes of traffic to catch his/her exit without looking, and cuts you off causing you to either rear end or side swipe them, the motorcycle will be considered the striking vehicle, but at fault? I think not...

I totally agree rider error equates to a large number of accidents, at least for single motorcycle only accidents. However cagers do not see us, care even if they do see us, intentionally do aggressive driving behavior around/near/towards motorcyclists. I've had people come over on me while they are looking right at me, I've had them not see me, or not care, I've been even with the front tire and they come over into my lane. Houston is not a motorcycle aware city...

Bottom line : motorcycle vs. cager accident, the statistics clearly indicate there is no way 90% of the issue is rider error... The original poster may have went off but his concerns are valid about cagers...
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:51 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tz420 View Post
maybe, just maybe, if you're rockin a 91' yammie the cagers' ain't your first concern.
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:32 AM   #68
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Quote:
Since someone clearly is not able to comprehend my previous post…
Hmm, lets see you quote Azylums 90% comment..then go off on the aspects of the 'accidents' you want. MC acidents are accidents, wether it's a single vehicle or multiple vehicle. 90% an exxageration? Yes, that far off...no.

"However cagers do not see us, care even if they do see us, intentionally do aggressive driving behavior around/near/towards motorcyclists. I've had people come over on me while they are looking right at me, I've had them not see me, or not care, I've been even with the front tire and they come over into my lane. Houston is not a motorcycle aware city..."

You got part of it right....guess what, they don't see other 'cagers' either. They do aggressive driving around other 'cagers' too.
You are NOT special, WE are NOT special... being that we are on a much less protective vehicle it is neccessary that WE be much more aware, active and defensive in our riding/actions.

In this, you are confusing 'at fault' for 'rider error'....
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:31 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
Hmm, lets see you quote Azylums 90% comment..then go off on the aspects of the 'accidents' you want. MC acidents are accidents, wether it's a single vehicle or multiple vehicle. 90% an exxageration? Yes, that far off...no.
I'm not going off any aspects I feel like, I'm staying on topic of motorcycle vs cagers. And the stats are Clearly different for those accidents from the stats involving just one vehicle, is that part not clear enough to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
"However cagers do not see us, care even if they do see us, intentionally do aggressive driving behavior around/near/towards motorcyclists. I've had people come over on me while they are looking right at me, I've had them not see me, or not care, I've been even with the front tire and they come over into my lane. Houston is not a motorcycle aware city..."

You got part of it right....guess what, they don't see other 'cagers' either. They do aggressive driving around other 'cagers' too.
You are NOT special, WE are NOT special... being that we are on a much less protective vehicle it is necessary that WE be much more aware, active and defensive in our riding/actions.
I am not disagreeing that cagers are crazy not only when it comes to motorcycles, however, obviously they are not as hesitant about running a motorcyclist off the road, or hitting, etc a motorcyclist as they are another car. It's obvious to you, me and everyone else who would come out of that unscathed, and who would not. Again I'm not even addressing cager vs cager...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
In this, you are confusing 'at fault' for 'rider error'....
I'm not confusing anything...
At fault:
Definition: to be the cause of a mistake; mistaken

Explanation: Used to attribute the blame to someone

Examples: Jack is at fault for our slow growth. - You can't that is at fault. He did everything he could to improve the situation!

So in your opinion, "at fault" and "rider error" are not interchangeable? Or that driver error will at least lead to "At Fault" ??

Don't get so caught up with arguing and loose sight of what's being discussed, I can appreciate someone that loves to debate, but when you loose focus of the topic and the facts surrounding it...

Anyhow this horse is dead any thing more would be kicking it...
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:00 AM   #70
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I'm not going off any aspects I feel like, I'm staying on topic of motorcycle vs cagers. And the stats are Clearly different for those accidents from the stats involving just one vehicle, is that part not clear enough to understand?
The stats of both play into the % of accident involving 'rider error'. Rider 'error' does not mean the cause of accident was neccessarily their fault (though this does seem implied in my recall of Az's post), merely there were made on the part of the rider that contributed.


Your commentary is filled with a hidden implication of 'poor biker'/'evil cager'
when the reality is simply good, bad & mediocre drivers & riders.

If we truly examine the data, we see blatant rider error (Ie: Speed, or that lovely 44$ of single vehicles accidents), and not so immediate obvious rider play parts in many of these fatalities (hence actually giving us a higher % of rider error related fatalities).

Example: The truck turned left in front of JB and stopped blocking both lanes of traffic...but JB was doing 55in a 45, locked up his rear-wheel and hit the truck.
Truck at fault, JB was speeding giving him less time/space to react and he reacted improperly.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:04 AM   #71
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:17 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
The stats of both play into the % of accident involving 'rider error'. Rider 'error' does not mean the cause of accident was neccessarily their fault (though this does seem implied in my recall of Az's post), merely there were made on the part of the rider that contributed.


Your commentary is filled with a hidden implication of 'poor biker'/'evil cager'
when the reality is simply good, bad & mediocre drivers & riders.

If we truly examine the data, we see blatant rider error (Ie: Speed, or that lovely 44$ of single vehicles accidents), and not so immediate obvious rider play parts in many of these fatalities (hence actually giving us a higher % of rider error related fatalities).

Example: The truck turned left in front of JB and stopped blocking both lanes of traffic...but JB was doing 55in a 45, locked up his rear-wheel and hit the truck.
Truck at fault, JB was speeding giving him less time/space to react and he reacted improperly.
LoL, I'm just saying the stats don't show 90% of accidents involving a motorcycle and a car, are due to rider error...
Is that accurate to say?
Is it also accurate to also say that it's not close to 90%?
Considering the stats are saying it's anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the time a cagers fault?
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:30 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solyjr View Post
LoL, I'm just saying the stats don't show 90% of accidents involving a motorcycle and a car, are due to rider error...
Is that accurate to say?
Is it also accurate to also say that it's not close to 90%?
Considering the stats are saying it's anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of the time a cagers fault?
I'll def agree it's not 90%... Personaly I'd (guesstimate) 75% involve true rider error, with the 'fault' or primary 'cause' being the burden of the other vehicle in regards to multi-vehicle accidents. Figure in the single-vehicle, speeding and I'd guess around 50% is close guesstimate in regards to the fatalities (at fault).

The links do provide some interesting information that people should pay some serious attention to. The % of unlicensed & un-insured/under insured riders, % of un-trained/self trained riders for example.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:46 AM   #74
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I stick to the opinion that 90% of accidents involving bikes were avoidable by the rider.

That is not to say who is at fault for "starting" the accident, but the unskilled/untrained/speeding/other riders didn't do their part to change the outcome of the encounter.

In your post Solyjr, you mention multiple instances of cagers doing dumb moves. Yes, they initiated to incident, but you chose to take avoidance rather than become a statistic.

How about this example:

Rider pulls out of parking lot and speeds down the road, following to close behind a car. Car suddenly changes lanes to avoid a construction barrel in lane, bike dodges into ditch, crashing.

Rider error or blame the "man" for leaving junk in the road?
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:24 AM   #75
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yea i would say alot of motorcycle accidents could have bein prevented if the rider was a better more defensive rider. same thing with any accident though:/:
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:37 AM   #76
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:38 AM   #77
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I stick to the opinion that 90% of accidents involving bikes were avoidable by the rider.

That is not to say who is at fault for "starting" the accident, but the unskilled/untrained/speeding/other riders didn't do their part to change the outcome of the encounter.

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Old 05-06-2008, 10:38 AM   #78
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:47 AM   #79
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Just keep a pocket full of pennies or marbles or w/e. Someone tries to kill you, Bust that with a hand full! makes a nice cracked glass and chipped paint effect all over the car.


Spoken like a true rider...



Oh, wait...


NVM
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:58 AM   #80
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yeah! just make sure you let them see you aiming for em and they should back off...mount a .50 cal!
But we encounter at least 2 stupid cagers on an average trip, and those .50 bullets almost cost a gallon of gas each! That takes the economy right out of riding. Go with something smaller. I say we develop lasers that double as purty LEDs for posing.
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