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Old 04-10-2008, 04:27 PM   #1
specterunseen
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Question Explain Physics of This to Me

Is it faster to drift around a corner like a motard does? Of course they eat sportbikes up on tight twisties it seems, and go cart tracks! ..... so i'm wondering how drifting helps at all? Is it just a stylistic thing, since a few motard racers (the odd few) actually drag knee. (looks funny!)

2nd part: On cars Formula 1's don't drift and they are the fastest... so its it just a style/control thing to show off or for drifting races?


I just can't understand the benefit of giving up traction by sliding that reduces the amount of power transferred by the rear wheel to accelerate until you get that point of it grabbing the ground again...

Please explain for my shallow brain....
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #2
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well you have Power sliding which is done when you break loose the rear wheel by giving it so much power and those lil motards can do that easy

then you have backing it in which you do by locking up your rear break eith by using the rear brake or downshifting really fast 1 or 2 gears ... of course you cant do this if you have a slipper clutch and dont attempt either on the streets

So which one you talking about Backing it in or Power sliding?
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:39 PM   #3
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Wouldn't it have to do with the direction of thrust being changed to a vector towards the future direction of travel, so being able to keep the rpms, and in the best power band, while keeping a tight turn with a bike that couldn't accommodate it by leaning alone (at that speed).

I'm probably far off - just puttin' it out there!

F1's have superior grip and lowest center of gravity, so they don't have to worry so much about losing grip in the corners... (professional go-karts out-perform F1's too - since their power-to-weight is so much higher, and their mass is tiny...)
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:45 PM   #4
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Wouldn't it have to do with the direction of thrust being changed to a vector towards the future direction of travel, so being able to keep the rpms, and in the best power band, while keeping a tight turn with a bike that couldn't accommodate it by leaning alone (at that speed).

I'm probably far off - just puttin' it out there!

F1's have superior grip and lowest center of gravity, so they don't have to worry so much about losing grip in the corners... (professional go-karts out-perform F1's too - since their power-to-weight is so much higher, and their mass is tiny...)
Better explanation than I could try to come up with... some other, functionality to that too. The lower CoG & even body design of the F1's play a part in their handling compared to say something from nascar etc.
Different vehicles, different styles of performance.
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFear View Post
well you have Power sliding which is done when you break loose the rear wheel by giving it so much power and those lil motards can do that easy

then you have backing it in which you do by locking up your rear break eith by using the rear brake or downshifting really fast 1 or 2 gears ... of course you cant do this if you have a slipper clutch and dont attempt either on the streets

So which one you talking about Backing it in or Power sliding?
on the contrary there no nothing at all, i mean no fear. slipper clutch is one of the key elements in backin it in. you do not lock up the rear brake, that is not "backing it in"

if you search the site, there is an article on how to back it in.
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:49 PM   #6
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jodyhudson could better answer this question, he's a pro at backing it in, i'm sure there are a few others on the board that could help you better understand the result of it too..
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:52 PM   #7
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jodyhudson could better answer this question, he's a pro at backing it in, i'm sure there are a few others on the board that could help you better understand the result of it too..
Shut it ... dat how I slip and slide in the park & lot Id show you if you rode .... but you dont
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:52 PM   #8
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heres a little info i found!

Mike I know how it is to be bit by the bug and want to learn how to hack, so I will tell you how I learned, I will be as descriptive as possible, this technique I learned by tring it out in parking lots late at night at the local mall, you pick the best place for you.
First thing you want to do is to try it in a straight line.

Get the bike going reasonably fast (4th or 5th gear) with PLENTY of room to spare at the end of the parking lot or wherever you are, Now
WITHOUT allowing the bike to engine brake or decellerate pull the clutch in and downshift 2 gears quickly and just as quickly modulate the clutch (release it) to about half pull (there about) while "covering" the rear brake, (meaning apply just enough rear brake to work together with the clutch to brake the rear tire free.

Now the tricky part is in understanding what is really happening here, The bike is traveling at speed (X) and the rear wheel is rotating at a speed constant with speed (X). So when you downshift and cover the rear brake while the forward speed of the bike is still (X) the rear wheel rotation speed drops well below that (X) and breaks free and the result is a slide, up to the point where the bike slows down to the same speed relative to the rear wheel rotation, then the rear wheel comes back in line with the front.

In a straight line all you will really feel is the rear wheel dancing around a bit behind you but the first lesson is to get the tire/rear wheel to break free so that you can grasp the concept.

Once you have that down you can then move to the next lesson which involves counter steering in concert with all of the above principles. This is done exactly the same way and with the exact same approach however the idea is to slide the bike in as close the the apex of the turn as possible, that concept is really the hardest to perfect because you have to train your mind to go alot deeper into the corner prior to sliding or you UNDER shoot the corner and apex too soon.

Counter steering is an ABSOLUTE in my opinion when sliding on pavement for 2 very important reasons (1) you are physically PUSHING down (away from you) on the opposite grip which forces the bike to lean which then gets you onto the edge of the (rear) tire and (2) gets the front tire pointed into the direction of the slide.

The biggest mistake you can make here is to stay on top of the bike during this process, you need to get down into the "hole" with your upper body with the majority of your weight as low as you can get it while still maintaining absolute control of the bike. If it hooks up and you are on top the result could be a high side.

The only variable I can think of would be the number of gears you need to downshift in order to get YOUR bike slide at any given speed, also another note to make is to be very aware of chatter and hop during the slide, if the rear wheel starts hopping pull the clutch in slightly and back off the brake a little.

Take it easy at first and learn to get the rear wheel to break free in a straight line first.

I am assuming with all of this you will be trying this technique on a 4 stroke machine? 2 strokes are a lot harder to perfect due to the lack of engine braking.

The speed with which you "Dump/Modulate" the clutch will have a BIG impact on how this process works or doesnt work but youll figure it out.

I hope this has helped, and I hope you remember to keep the speed up when you get to the sliding into corners part, the slower you go the more tendancy there is for the bike to hook up and high side you. Have fun.


This is the best explanation I have heard on this subject
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:53 PM   #9
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8dMRtxjoN0
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbonJames View Post
heres a little info i found!

Mike I know how it is to be bit by the bug and want to learn how to hack, so I will tell you how I learned, I will be as descriptive as possible, this technique I learned by tring it out in parking lots late at night at the local mall, you pick the best place for you.
First thing you want to do is to try it in a straight line.

Get the bike going reasonably fast (4th or 5th gear) with PLENTY of room to spare at the end of the parking lot or wherever you are, Now
WITHOUT allowing the bike to engine brake or decellerate pull the clutch in and downshift 2 gears quickly and just as quickly modulate the clutch (release it) to about half pull (there about) while "covering" the rear brake, (meaning apply just enough rear brake to work together with the clutch to brake the rear tire free.
Um dis is what I said perhaps you did not read I said down 2 gears DUH! read
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Busa club. why did you not mention that? that makes things all nice and peachy
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Um dis is what I said perhaps you did not read I said down 2 gears DUH! read
theres more to downshifting 2 gears fool

you know nothing, you ride a slow busa.
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:04 PM   #12
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Simple, but totally different things going on

F1 cars are set up to basically suck to the ground, using the body, wings and undertray. The car is basically glued to the ground at the speeds they run.

Why do motards slide as opposed to hanging off.. most motard races are run on very tight courses, and the bikes are light compared to the average SS bike. The idea being to get the back around and "point and shoot" to the next curve. They also have awesome ground clearance and lean angles available, so you can stick your foot out and shove the bike down almost flat to get around a curve. I don't think there is enough room to hang off.

They are light enough and at low enough speeds to not require the hanging off part as well.

3rd, the reason you back it in is to square off a corner. Again, on a SS bike the extra weight adds inertia, trying to stand the bike up and spit you off. With the old, hard to turn and overpowered bikes, you tried to get thru the turn as fast as you could and get the bike stood back up so you could get back on the gas. So you would back it around to point the front end up the track, and get back to the gas as fast as you could.
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:05 PM   #13
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:23 PM   #14
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I'm thinking though - it wouldn't be better to slide through a turn on a sport bike though.... if that sucker ever did bite by accident it wouldn't be good would it? And the weight of a big sport would tend to make it slide out too much, wouldn't it?
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:28 PM   #15
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Wouldn't it have to do with the direction of thrust being changed to a vector towards the future direction of travel, so being able to keep the rpms, and in the best power band, while keeping a tight turn with a bike that couldn't accommodate it by leaning alone (at that speed).

I'm probably far off - just puttin' it out there!

F1's have superior grip and lowest center of gravity, so they don't have to worry so much about losing grip in the corners... (professional go-karts out-perform F1's too - since their power-to-weight is so much higher, and their mass is tiny...)
You're such a nerd.....
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...... but when i have problems being able to screw other things i normally tie them up and lube the out of it. dont be afraid do get rough with it. if you cant handle it with the tool you have maybe the task is to hard for you. in which case if could be time for some tag team action and maybe even a foursome...
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:33 PM   #16
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You're such a nerd.....
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ya got me mang!

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Old 04-10-2008, 10:49 PM   #17
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:59 PM   #18
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my opinion.. you want as much traction possible at all times. You waste time sliding around corners, applying throttle or not. Look at the sport of Drifting (that started in Japan). They may be hauling going through their drift track, but think if they actually had no wheel spin how much faster they could make it around the same track.

Same concept on a 1/4 mile track. If you spin at the line, or anywhere down the 1/4 mile, you're loosing precious tenths-of-a-second.
fah, Dukes of Hazard had it before then... :-)
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:02 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Simple, but totally different things going on

F1 cars are set up to basically suck to the ground, using the body, wings and undertray. The car is basically glued to the ground at the speeds they run.

Why do motards slide as opposed to hanging off.. most motard races are run on very tight courses, and the bikes are light compared to the average SS bike. The idea being to get the back around and "point and shoot" to the next curve. They also have awesome ground clearance and lean angles available, so you can stick your foot out and shove the bike down almost flat to get around a curve. I don't think there is enough room to hang off.

They are light enough and at low enough speeds to not require the hanging off part as well.

3rd, the reason you back it in is to square off a corner. Again, on a SS bike the extra weight adds inertia, trying to stand the bike up and spit you off. With the old, hard to turn and overpowered bikes, you tried to get thru the turn as fast as you could and get the bike stood back up so you could get back on the gas. So you would back it around to point the front end up the track, and get back to the gas as fast as you could.
This guy explains it best. POINT AND SHOOT.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:34 AM   #20
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One last thing to keep in mind.. most of the early "motard" racers came from motocross and enduro background, so the stick the foot out and square the turn style came natural to them. The few roadracers that have gone that way have kind of made a mixed style, half foot off, half knee dragging.

People that have ridden competitive trials tend to keep their foot on the pegs for a lot longer.. it is ingrained in your head that a "dab" is bad...
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