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Old 02-18-2008, 09:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
That's the thing Danny, it would be hard to say what the increase would be (if there were one). In order to cover losses like that it may have to be much more than $30. Think of this too, there are currently track day orgs that are starting their prices at $180 (plus tax in some cases) and I've heard that there are others that charge $200 currently.
I understand that you can't pinpoint a set number in increase, but as I see it you can look at the past trends (or the last 8 years if you look at LSTD)...

Determine how many days were "unrideable" or unsafe conditions. For me, as an avid "street" rider and trackday enthusiast, unrideable or unsafe conditions would amount to a very wet track for more than 1/2 of a scheduled day.

Let's look at the past....let's say (for instance) LSTD held 20 trackdays (non-race events) each year and on average, each year there were 4 "unrideable" trackdays. That would be 1/5 of the scheduled trackdays LSTD had scheduled. So, if you raise the price by $36.00 (that's 1/5 or 20% of an average 180.00 trackday fee as I know it) you recover your "loss" of the 4 trackdays you had to give credit by making "sufficient" revenue the other 16 trackdays.

This is just how I see it and it's only my opinion.

All I know, is that there is/should be a better way to deal with "rain-out" policies....other than, "oh well, sucks to be you", "go work on your lines in the rain", "become a better well rounded rider", etc.

As Bumblebee pointed out....in the 9 years that I have been riding, I must admit that at all the times I set out for a ride..the first thing I did was check the weather as to avoid the rain at all costs....Sure, I got caught in it a few times, but it didn't peak my interest so much as to get me wanting to improve my skills on the wet pavement.

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Old 02-18-2008, 09:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
All I know, is that there is/should be a better way to deal with "rain-out" policies....other than, "oh well, sucks to be you", "go work on your lines in the rain", "become a better well rounded rider", etc.
LOL "oh well, sucks to be you". I agree I would rather see a little increase than lose the WHOLE track fee due to rain. Because I ain't riding it. Riding in the rain sux. Period.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
All I know, is that there is/should be a better way to deal with "rain-out" policies....other than, "oh well, sucks to be you", "go work on your lines in the rain", "become a better well rounded rider", etc.
Trust me, I hear you. Ever since this became more of an issue for people about 2 years ago (it's progressively becoming more of an "issue" with more folks doing track days now), trackday providers have been looking at alternatives. Just remember that my opinion is not our policy. While I may disagree with rain-out days, that's a personal decision and is not translated to what LSTD does. LSTD will consistently do what our customer base wants; we may not be able to do it over night, but we listen to feedback and implement things as we can. It's a very dynamic business.

For the record, LSTD does not go around saying "go work on your lines", and especially not "sucks to be you", etc, etc. Now, we may say, "Hey guys, we can't cancel today (for whatever reason), you are welcome to ride or not" and then we'll work hard for those folks that don't want to ride. I don't think ANYONE watches the pre-trackday weather closer than we do (probably like all other trackday orgs). It is a big source of stress and frustration for us knowing that there will be issues with some customers who don't understand the inner workings of running a track event. People are still under the impression that the trackday providers are making money hand over fist, so they think that canceling a day is "no big deal". Well, nobody should be expected to work for free- and trust me, it is work putting on these large events to organize up to 90 customers, safety operations, and then the business aspect with advertising and scheduling, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbuck View Post
As Bumblebee pointed out....in the 9 years that I have been riding, I must admit that at all the times I set out for a ride..the first thing I did was check the weather as to avoid the rain at all costs....Sure, I got caught in it a few times, but it didn't peak my interest so much as to get me wanting to improve my skills on the wet pavement.

DBuck
I rode a motorcycle for a daily driver for about 5 years or so. I rode cross-country a couple times when I was in my late teens and early twenties. Riding in the rain is no big deal. When I first started racing in '88, I purposely did not race in the rain because I was scared to. Not because it was the rain, but because I knew I was pushing myself at the track and didn't want to risk tossing the bike away (though that bike was a tank and really hard to hurt!). So I can see your point of view.

Like I said above, my opinion is just what it is; don't confuse it with any policy please. I believe wholey in customer service, and will always do what is best for the company, which translates to being what's best for the customer
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxerbill View Post
I agree I would rather see a little increase than lose the WHOLE track fee due to rain.
... and that folks is where I was coming from with my first post about the "fear" of trackday prices going up.

I think Danny's matrix for covering costs of rain-outs is a decent one, it's nothing new and it's something we've already been working on (and will continue to). It's tough to hit folks with price increases when you've been in business as long as we have with very little price fluctuation. Racers don't like to see increases in things like this (like entry fee changes), it with their racing budget too much. So it's a delicate balance.


The positive thing is, as long as tracks keep working with us and that trend is something that seems to be growing, it'll work out much better for everyone.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
... and that folks is where I was coming from with my first post about the "fear" of trackday prices going up.

I think Danny's matrix for covering costs of rain-outs is a decent one, it's nothing new and it's something we've already been working on (and will continue to). It's tough to hit folks with price increases when you've been in business as long as we have with very little price fluctuation. Racers don't like to see increases in things like this (like entry fee changes), it with their racing budget too much. So it's a delicate balance.


The positive thing is, as long as tracks keep working with us and that trend is something that seems to be growing, it'll work out much better for everyone.
Just out of curiosity...How many riders on trackday events (non-race weekends) are "street riders"(non-licensed racers) vs. licensed riders?

Maybe only increase the price on days that aren't race weekends? This gives the "racers" no room to b*tch. And I'll (and other street riders) just avoid the race weekend trackdays.

As I see it (and remeber I'm new to this), "most" of the guys I see at the track are street riders/trackday riders and this number seems to be increasing by multitudes. Therefore, "most" of the business comes from non-racers. Like I said, I'm new to this and for all I know there are more licensed racers participating than non-racers....that is why I asked the intial question.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:08 AM   #26
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I just came up with an idea what about selling rain insurance? That way you don't have to raise the prices of trackdays. You would have to put a pencil to it to figure it out to but I guarantee it should be enough to cover the cancellation especially keeping the track fees for people that don't buy the insurance. I am sure there is some risk analysis guy on here that could figure out the math. But have ya'll ever thought of rain insurance?
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxerbill View Post
I just came up with an idea what about selling rain insurance? That way you don't have to raise the prices of trackdays. You would have to put a pencil to it to figure it out to but I guarantee it should be enough to cover the cancellation especially keeping the track fees for people that don't buy the insurance. I am sure there is some risk analysis guy on here that could figure out the math. But have ya'll ever thought of rain insurance?


You must have missed this thread.

http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46991
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:23 AM   #28
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One thing no seems to have mentioned is what happens in any market that becomes crowded - restaurants / convienence stores / malls / trucking companies / clothing stores, etc.

The price normally does NOT go up in this type of business environment, it remains flat for a longer period of time and in some cases can even go down.

The consumer is normally the winner as competition increases. Service and perks tend to improve - someone is always looking for a way to attract the customers from the competitors.

During the times of tough competition the profits of the orginizations WILL suffer.
Concessions (losses on a particular event due to: whatever) by the owners may become necessary to compete. The businesses that have the best management and strongest finances will normally prevail, and the weak will fade away.

Three events were cancelled this weekend for credt - this is unheard of and would not have happened without competition.



If there is money to be made - there will be competition, and it will be a good thing.

Last edited by Radar; 02-18-2008 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:25 AM   #29
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Wow guess so. I guess great minds think alike.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
One thing no seems to have mentioned is what happens in any market that becomes crowded - restaurants / convienence stores / malls / trucking companies / clothing stores, etc.

The price normally does NOT go up in this type of business environment, it remains flat for a longer period of time and in some cases can even go down.

The consumer is normally the winner as competition increases. Service and perks tend to improve - someone is always looking for a way to attract the customers from the competitors.

During the times of tough competition the profits of the orginizations WILL suffer.
Concessions (losses on a particular event due to: whatever) by the owners may become necessary to compete. The businesses that have the best management and strongest finances will normally prevail, and the weak will fade away.

If there is money to be made - there will be competition, and it will be a good thing.
Don't say things like that....The thread may get locked....

I agree, with the rise in participants and the rise of trackday providers....costs will change (hopefully for the better). If tracks (membership or non-membership) can't compete with other tracks (i.e. ones that gives rain-out credit to the orgs vs. not getting a policy) then their business will suffer. There are enough track orgs out there now that WE the consumer will get heard (just like Tom said), it's only a matter of time.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
One thing no seems to have mentioned is what happens in any market that becomes crowded - restaurants / convienence stores / malls / trucking companies / clothing stores, etc.

The price normally does NOT go up in this type of business environment, it remains flat for a longer period of time and in some cases can even go down.

The consumer is normally the winner as competition increases. Service and perks tend to improve - someone is always looking for a way to attract the customers from the competitors.

During the times of tough competition the profits of the orginizations WILL suffer.
Concessions (losses on a particular event due to: whatever) by the owners may become necessary to compete. The businesses that have the best management and strongest finances will normally prevail, and the weak will fade away.

Three events were cancelled this weekend for credt - this is unheard of and would not have happened without competition.



If there is money to be made - there will be competition, and it will be a good thing.
Prices dont go up? lol WHERE?
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:30 AM   #32
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Wow guess so. I guess great minds think alike.
Or one of us is rubbing off on the other
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:32 AM   #33
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Prices dont go up? lol WHERE?
How much would motorcycles cost if Harley were your only choice. How much would a motel room cost if there were only one choice - ever heard of gas wars?? You can buy hand held calculator anywhere for $5 - when TI first came out with them they were $200 30 years ago.
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:34 AM   #34
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AND...gas keep going up?


price of FOOD at resturaunts keeps going up... (and really its the same food)
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:36 AM   #35
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Prices dont go up? lol WHERE?
Basic equation...more trackday participants....more track providers....cost will/should go down based on the Supply/Demand Curve...even if they don't, I'll still participate

demand1
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:37 AM   #36
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AND...gas keep going up?


price of FOOD at resturaunts keeps going up... (and really its the same food)
Everything goes up with the normal inflation/CPI increases, but if you think a burger is high now - imagine if no one next door were selling them - you are kidding aren't you - if you think competition doesn't keep prices in check?
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:35 PM   #37
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Inflation anyone? Prices will have to go up soon as the tracks keep getting more expensive as demand for dates increases as well. I've heard lots of this in the race community about how raising entry fees is a bad thing. Well I say if another 30-40 dollars is going to be a big strain, you may want to start thinking of another hobby. Racers will always about money until they get a factory ride. Racing is not a cheap hobby, nor is being a trackday junkie. We raised our price 3.13 this year so it rounds out to 190.00 which is the most expensive day around I think. I wanted lower, but reality is what it is and in the end I think we offer something that makes it worth every cent. After all, what are you paying for? .......time in the seat.....on the track....with support and safety. The smart folks will do the math and make the best choice for value vs. dollar, again our wonderful free market system at work.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:00 PM   #38
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Prices will go down? Come on Bill/ Doug, the newest TD org is topping out highest of everyone, and they are trying to break in to a saturated market. Elite track days are supposed to be at or around $200.

Bill, "rain" insurance is not a new idea, it exists now and is incredibly expensive. Insurance in and of itself is incredibly expensive just to put on the show. The rain-out insurance can double that cost!

We'll see how it goes this year, I know that the creme will rise to the top.
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