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Old 02-14-2008, 10:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearalex View Post
.......
there is still a marginal amount of rear brake, if your using 90% ft brake you still have 10% left over, if your only using ft brake 100%, your not utilizing it to the best abilities. you need to concentrate on shifting your weight to the back to put weight on the rear.

also if your tire is off the ground (a stoppie) you now have to modulate (let off) the ft brake to keep from going over, introducing a new variable into your braking. the verticle access.

and since you ride a cruiser, you REALLY need to concentrate on using your rear. yr ft brakes are nowhere near as capable as a sportbike and thereby less effective at stopping in general.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
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to racer and squoddy: you know guys, i have done the very same thing - in panic i locked my rear wheel. So i decided to change my reflexes - opposite to what MSF suggests - in panic i am only going to use my front brake. There was a thread here sometime ago and i totally agree with the physics of it. During panic stop (not MSF quick stop) you push so hard on the front breaks that your rear wheel carries almost no weight (marginally doing a "stoppie") so it makes little sense applying rear. Quick stop is different as it is done not in the panic situation and therefore there is some "margin" still left and therefore rear brake helps (with different proportions 30-70 or 10-90% depending on a bike as the book says)

Of course the most dangerous thing in this is front wheel locking. I have never had that happen. I wish i knew what it feels like as I want to develop the skills to handle it... Actually this brings me to my comment on MSF:
I wish BRC or ERC had the more "challenging" stuff for the students who want to try it. E.g. stopping on gravel (so that your wheels lock (rear, front, or both)...Wheelies, stoppies etc. Something really challenging like that... But i see the problem - it would be very difficult to implement because of the legal liability issues...
Good point about the rear wheel carrying no weight, which is what makes it lock. :/: I see the point, though, about not letting off because if you're not going straight (I was) then you're going to lose it when you let off and go to the left (I didn't). I don't know if I would be able to NOT use the rear, though...
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
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This thread has officially been



JACKED
Not necessarily. We're analyzing the value of locking the rear wheel during braking... Don't be a hater.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badman View Post
This thread has officially been



JACKED
Sorry, man!

Ok, here's what i think about the intersection situation:

I think the two guys here are correct: the car was at fault by crossing the intersection line, but good luck proving that to the Ins company. In some states, where ins ompanies split the guilt sometimes it would be 70%-30% in the bike's fault. In other states where faulty side must be chosen 100% it would probably be the bike.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:14 AM   #25
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I DON'T CARE ABOUT JACKED

i want people to learn, PERIOD.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wever411 View Post
it sounds like the rider was outriding his abilities, going to fast to safely react to the car.
Ditto...
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:20 AM   #27
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My thread, intelligent discussion..take the PW somewhere else...

in a panic situation, grabbing the front break could end in a front slide, it's also possible that instead you catapult or plant yourself into the ground with an endo (stoppie).
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:21 AM   #28
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Quote:
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My thread, intelligent discussion..take the PW somewhere else...

in a panic situation, grabbing the front break could end in a front slide, it's also possible that instead you catapult or plant yourself into the ground with an endo (stoppie).
Sorry. :/:
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
My thread, intelligent discussion..take the PW somewhere else...

in a panic situation, grabbing the front break could end in a front slide, it's also possible that instead you catapult or plant yourself into the ground with an endo (stoppie).
yeah, that's my fear too - having front locked and sliding is a lot more dangerous than having the rear locked and sliding. So perhaps MSF book is correct... After all it has probably been around for many years and many pros thought about all different situations and came up with "the least of all evils" strategy..
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #30
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Sorry. :/:

No, your discussion is cool Squoddy. I'm like racerx, if its intelligent discussion/educational that's great and I have no problem with it.
Useless, BS is another matter.



Best and hardest thing Nuc...are don't panic. Fear is ok, Panic isn't.
Stay calm and act/react as the circumstances allow & change.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearalex View Post
yeah, that's my fear too - having front locked and sliding is a lot more dangerous than having the rear locked and sliding. So perhaps MSF book is correct... After all it has probably been around for many years and many pros thought about all different situations and came up with "the least of all evils" strategy..
perhaps........they might know a thing or 2
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:41 AM   #32
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearalex View Post
to racer and squoddy: you know guys, i have done the very same thing - in panic i locked my rear wheel. So i decided to change my reflexes - opposite to what MSF suggests - in panic i am only going to use my front brake. There was a thread here sometime ago and i totally agree with the physics of it. During panic stop (not MSF quick stop) you push so hard on the front breaks that your rear wheel carries almost no weight (marginally doing a "stoppie") so it makes little sense applying rear. Quick stop is different as it is done not in the panic situation and therefore there is some "margin" still left and therefore rear brake helps (with different proportions 30-70 or 10-90% depending on a bike as the book says)

Of course the most dangerous thing in this is front wheel locking. I have never had that happen. I wish i knew what it feels like as I want to develop the skills to handle it... Actually this brings me to my comment on MSF:
I wish BRC or ERC had the more "challenging" stuff for the students who want to try it. E.g. stopping on gravel (so that your wheels lock (rear, front, or both)...Wheelies, stoppies etc. Something really challenging like that... But i see the problem - it would be very difficult to implement because of the legal liability issues...
When I took the MSF and we did the quick stop, I did that. I pressed hard on only the front brakes alone and I did lose control of the bike and laid it down. And on the note of the rear will being almost weightless and being equivalent to pulling a stoppie, you arent pulling a stopie in this situation, your rear tire is still on the ground and still turning. Applying the rear brake will help you stop in shorter distances.
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:10 AM   #34
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:13 AM   #35
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Also physics apply that if you apply the rear first, the bike will squat and not load the front so hard. If you slam on the front, then the back, you will have unloaded the rear and it will lock up. Try it and see sometime.

Slightly off topic question; how many have actually went out to a parking lot or deserted back road, and praticed stopping hard? You would be surprised at how many riders have never bothered to get familiar with their bikes.

Back on topic.. the story was the rider was so close and couldn't stop in time. Wonder if they were covering the front brake or had the delay time of having to reach for it? The time it takes to get your fingers out to the lever can add a substantial distance to your stop.
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:13 AM   #36
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Quote:
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Flip this around and here would be the riders post on the event:

"So I was minding my own business and this munch cut me off and pulled out in front of me. I was too close and there was gravel in the road and they ran me off the road. F-ing cagers!!"
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:13 AM   #37
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yeah sorry if you dont agree with me x, but buy a cheap bike and crash the out of it. IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT.

It will teach you about how NOT to crash on the street.
i have a hard enough time convincing people 600SS aren't good beginner bikes, good luck trying to get people to buy a bike to crash.
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:15 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Also physics apply that if you apply the rear first, the bike will squat and not load the front so hard. If you slam on the front, then the back, you will have unloaded the rear and it will lock up. Try it and see sometime.

.
hmmm.........never thought of it like that.......gonna try that this weekend.
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whorenet View Post
in alex's case, pulling a stoppie is mostly impossible to do....your 06 aero has poor weight distribution for that and unless youre TRYING to, its not going to happen. USE YOUR BACK BRAKE MAN! you have a softtail so im willing to bet the suspension will keep the wheel on the ground no matter what....

panic is a horrible thing. if youre the kind of person that has bad anxiety, riding a bike may infact not be for you.

in this situation it sounds like the rider was going to fast for his skill set. while pulling into the intersection was a bad thing to do with a motorcycle comming, you wont be held liable in texas for causing the accident. you had no physical contact with the rider and im not even sure why the cops had you exchange info unless the story you posted is only "close to accurate".

Also in reference to the back break locking up....with the design of sportbikes(almost perfect side to side weight distribution) when your back tire is locked your body lean angle will directly(not inversely) control the direction of rear slide.

i really think everyone should have a cheap peice o junk bike that they can take to a backroad/parking lot and try braking/learning techniques on. Every "for instance" people bring up on the board.....go try it....chances are one day you will encounter it as well, and knowing what do do in the situation may save your life.

yeah sorry if you dont agree with me x, but buy a cheap bike and crash the out of it. IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT.

It will teach you about how NOT to crash on the street.
well thank you, dr.!

Unfortunately though, you may be right. I am anxious person in general and i think i carry higher risk while riding as opposed to some level-headed person... but i luuuuuv riding!!! So that's why i actually am trying to be safe (in spite of what i brag about on here)... But i struggle with this question: to ride or not to ride! I think i am going to ride and see where i end up
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:18 AM   #40
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Slightly off topic question; how many have actually went out to a parking lot or deserted back road, and praticed stopping hard? You would be surprised at how many riders have never bothered to get familiar with their bikes.
I actually do this in my yard on occasion... and I suggest to a couple people, start with a throwdown dirt...or even a bicycle and practice 'skids'.
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