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Old 01-31-2008, 11:54 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixxer Geezer View Post
exactly....
btw, my aunt is convinced that when i die and meet her in heaven she will have a good last laugh over my conviction that it didn't exist. I told her that if i indeed meet her in heaven i promise to wear "I AM A MORON" t- for the whole eternity...

Geezer, I will look you up there too in my t-shirt and say hello just to give you the satisfaction of being right afterall (no sarcasm here)
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:54 AM   #62
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Cajun, sorry but have to adjust your facts:

The existence of the dark matter is nothing like the existence of . The latter cannot be proven or disproven simply by definition of what and faith is.

The dark matter is different. It cannot be "seen" so far. By "seen" the physicists mean that it doesn't emit any electromagnetic radiation that we can detect.
(light is a form of electromagnetic radiation so when we "see" something with our eyes, its the sensitive cells in our eyes detect that radiation)
Dark matter doesn't interact with any other of our detection mechanisms with one important exception - gravitation. We know the dark matter is there because we do detect it's gravitational pull. So yeah, although we cannot "see" the dark matter we are "sure" it is there.
No offense taken, I love the discussion! Now as far as adjusting, you speak more to my point than anything else. The mere fact that it cannot be measured means that it doesn't exist, by the logic as applied to the notion of the impossibility of existence of or some other deity. As with Dark Matter, we cannot currently measure it just as we cannot measure the existence of - currently. Your wording bothers me in that it seems to take away from the significance of the latter. It suggests that scientists are able to acutely measure it based on the gravity it- it being this unknown "dark matter-" exerts on the items around it- essentially, we can measure it not by the material itself but by the materials around it. This bolded and underlined section is really profound:

Quote:
Remarkably, it turns out there is five times more material in clusters of galaxies than we would expect from the galaxies and hot gas we can see. Most of the stuff in clusters of galaxies is invisible and, since these are the largest structures in the Universe held together by gravity, scientists then conclude that most of the matter in the entire Universe is invisible. This invisible stuff is called 'dark matter'. There is currently much ongoing research by scientists attempting to discover exactly what this dark matter is, how much there is, and what effect it may have on the future of the Universe as a whole.
Basically, we know based on the laws of physics and how they apply to the known universe that the way those galactic and stellar materials interact with one another cannot happen without the influence of some unknown, immeasurable dynamic. It does not however say that we can measure it. It only admits that we know that without said influence, the forces which act upon those heavenly bodies would not be sufficient to sustain the current order of things.
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:56 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houstn26 View Post
btw, my aunt is convinced that when i die and meet her in heaven she will have a good last laugh over my conviction that it didn't exist. I told her that if i indeed meet her in heaven i promise to wear "I AM A MORON" t- for the whole eternity...

Geezer, I will look you up there too in my t-shirt and say hello just to give you the satisfaction of being right afterall (no sarcasm here)



It will be great to see ya there... fo reals.... l will be wearing the t-shirt that says..."I am looking for the Moron".... holla at me.... peace...
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:01 PM   #64
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Let me try to explain again: we cannot "see" dark matter. but we can certainly "measure" it. It's like if you have a bowling ball in a black box. You can hold it in your hands and "measure" that it weighs about 10lbs. But since it is in a black box you cant really "see" it. So you are sure that some "dark matter" is in your box but you just dont know if it's a bowling ball or 5 bottles of vodka!

The method of "measurement" of dark matter is called gravitational lensing. It's very exciting and interesting and I could tell you more about it off this board- come to m&g!

And also, I appreciate your interest in physics and by no means i intended to offend religious people. I think everyone has a right to believe or not believe in whatever they want. I just meant to say that science and religion are fundamentally different: one is based on proofs and skepticism, the other is based on faith.

Cheers,
Alex

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No offense taken, I love the discussion! Now as far as adjusting, you speak more to my point than anything else. The mere fact that it cannot be measured means that it doesn't exist, by the logic as applied to the notion of the impossibility of existence of or some other deity. As with Dark Matter, we cannot currently measure it just as we cannot measure the existence of - currently. Your wording bothers me in that it seems to take away from the significance of the latter. It suggests that scientists are able to acutely measure it based on the gravity it exerts on the items around it- essentially, we can measure it not by the material itself but by the materials around it. This bolded and underlined section is really profound:



Basically, we know based on the laws of physics and how they apply to the known universe that they way those galactic and stellar materials interact with one another cannot happen without the influence of some unknown, immeasurable dynamic. It does not however say that we can measure it. It only admits that we know that without said influence, the forces which act upon those heavenly bodies would not be sufficient to sustain the current order of things.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:05 PM   #65
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Quote:
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As with Dark Matter, we cannot currently measure it just as we cannot measure the existence of - currently.

The existence of your cannot be measured because there is no evidence that she exists. It's not science.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:07 PM   #66
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The existence of your cannot be measured because there is no evidence that she exists. It's not science.
yeah man.. i seen her.. and she is hawttttttttttttttttt!!!!
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:09 PM   #67
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yeah man.. i seen her.. and she is hawttttttttttttttttt!!!!

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Old 01-31-2008, 12:12 PM   #68
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:21 PM   #69
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Quote:
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Let me try to explain again: we cannot "see" dark matter. but we can certainly "measure" it. It's like if you have a bowling ball in a black box. You can hold it in your hands and "measure" that it weighs about 10lbs. But since it is in a black box you cant really "see" it. So you are sure that some "dark matter" is in your box but you just dont know if it's a bowling ball or 5 bottles of vodka!

The method of "measurement" of dark matter is called gravitational lensing. It's very exciting and interesting and I could tell you more about it off this board- come to m&g!
I understand what you are saying as far as not being able to see it yet being able to measure it- though I must say I disagree as it applies to acutely and accurately measuring Dark Matter- because that is how we measure air. Air gives off no light for the Human eye to be able to observe, yet we know air exists and can measure it. Dark Matter is however a bit different. There is still, to my knowledge, no real way of measuring it. We can make assumptions based on what we can observe such as the density of space and how gravitational and other forces should be acting upon those bodies but cannot actually point to some anomaly in space and say "hey, thats where it is...". Your metaphor with the bowling ball is flawed but shows the mystery that is dark matter. Let's say we DO have a black box and there is some item within it that measures 10 lbs and rolls about within the black box. Can you actually say that it is a bowling ball? Not by scientific standards, you can't! You can only make an assumption based certain measurements and observations. It could very well be a basketball full of water or a solid marble sphere or some other solid, heavy spherical item.

Quote:
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And also, I appreciate your interest in physics and by no means i intended to offend religious people. I think everyone has a right to believe or not believe in whatever they want. I just meant to say that science and religion are fundamentally different: one is based on proofs and skepticism, the other is based on faith.

Cheers,
Alex
This I can agree with wholeheartedly. Science and religion are to separate dynamics and therefore cannot be debated particularly in contrast to one another. Good stuff though...
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:21 PM   #70
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The existence of your cannot be measured because there is no evidence that she exists. It's not science.
I can agree with the first and last parts of this...
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:22 PM   #71
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yeah man.. i seen her.. and she is hawttttttttttttttttt!!!!
Yeah, looks a lil like Alanis Morissette huh...yeah HAWWWWTTTT
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:24 PM   #72
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Supposed to be TWO... dummy moments boy I swear...

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...Science and religion are tWo separate dynamics and therefore cannot be debated particularly in contrast to one another. Good stuff though...
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
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Yeah, looks a lil like Alanis Morissette huh...yeah HAWWWWTTTT
i have only seen the view of by trey parker and matt stone. Have you guys seen the father (not Jesus) according to them in southpark?
Talking about the sarcasm!

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Old 01-31-2008, 12:29 PM   #74
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i have only seen the view of by trey parker and matt stone. Have you guys think the father (not Jesus) according to them in southpark?
Talking about the sarcasm!
Lol, yeah...Dogma was a trip though lol

20070209122851 dogma jesus
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:30 PM   #75
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Well here is a real mind blower. If we delve into quantum mechanics there is a lot of support for us being spiritual beings but there is still no evidence of a .
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:31 PM   #76
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Well here is a real mind blower. If we delve into quantum mechanics there is a lot of support for us being spiritual beings but there is still no evidence of a .
Hmm...sounds interesting. Care to oblige?
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:33 PM   #77
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Dark Matter is however a bit different. There is still, to my knowledge, no real way of measuring it. We can make assumptions based on what we can observe such as the density of space and how gravitational and other forces should be acting upon those bodies but cannot actually point to some anomaly in space and say "hey, thats where it is...". ...

yes, there is real way of measuring it. And yes, there are "maps" of dark matter being charted. i.e. we can point in one direction is space and say - boy thats full of dark matter and point in another and say that seems a bit less "dense"... It's interesting stuff!!!

There is even more mysterious thing called Dark Energy but im not even gonna get into that!

One day after 3-4 beers we can talk about that!
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:37 PM   #78
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southpark's idea of the (not my opinion!)
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:39 PM   #79
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Hmm...sounds interesting. Care to oblige?
Not sure where I would start on that. Entanglement is an interesting theory.

You should check out "What the bleep?" It has many aspects of this in an understandable form presented from many positions including those that invovle Theosophy.
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Old 01-31-2008, 12:46 PM   #80
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Not sure where I would start on that. Entanglement is an interesting theory.

You should check out "What the bleep?" It has many aspects of this in an understandable form presented from many positions including those that invovle Theosophy.
i think if someone interested in the sciences they should check out the science resources. if they are interested in religion they should check out religious resources. I dont think the two mix very well because of the fundamental casm in the way they postulate themselved.
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