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Old 01-20-2008, 11:17 AM   #21
Patrick
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u dont need a pc but if you must get one dont buy the bs pc3 usb get the first pc3 they are easier to tune.

I'd have to disagree.

First the "old" PCIII isn't available anymore, let alone for an '04 - '05 GSXR.
Second, IMO, the PCIII USB has much more tuneability and is a better overall unit.

You stated the "old" PCIII was easier to tune. In what aspect?

Not trying to bust your chops, just interested in your views on the subject.
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:41 AM   #22
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Patrick what about the stacks? Do you feel like they are worth the money?
How much are they?
Does the bike require adjustment after fitting or will there be a gain without?
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:51 AM   #23
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Patrick what about the stacks? Do you feel like they are worth the money?
How much are they?
Does the bike require adjustment after fitting or will there be a gain without?
For some models the stack work very well, on others, not so much.
As far as tuning, most times there's no real measurable gains to be had by dyno tuning after they've been installed IF you already have a good tune / map.

Charlie,
What bike are you looking to add them to?
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Old 01-20-2008, 11:58 AM   #24
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Changing stacks are not going to give you any more peak hp, all it is going to do is move your powerband around...You may bring the power in sooner with taller stacks, or make it come in later but hold peak power longer with short stacks. I did a lot of experimenting with stacks back in the early busa days when all the rave was "all short stacks". All it really did was hurt the bottom end and midrange and made the bike more peaky, it MAYBE gained 1-2hp up top and held on longer but. On the street, all long stacks felt the best, made the most low and midrange power and didn't really hurt peak HP although it peaked 500rpms sooner. I ended back up at mixed stacks, just the way it came from the factory...


The only way you will know is to test them on a dyno while monitoring AFR. You may need to remap it, you may not....just depends..there is no guessing on this stuff, its got to be dynoed.....Seat of the pants tells you nothing.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:04 PM   #25
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ZXALAN, on the Busas, and on a lot of the larger displacement bikes I would agree.
However, I've found on sone of the smaller displacement bikes it can add HP in the midrange without taking anything away from the top end.
On the SV's I've actually added both peak AND midrange HP and torque.

And I agree with you, I quantify both of these statements by results I've seen on the dyno.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
I'd have to disagree.

First the "old" PCIII isn't available anymore, let alone for an '04 - '05 GSXR.
Second, IMO, the PCIII USB has much more tuneability and is a better overall unit.

You stated the "old" PCIII was easier to tune. In what aspect?

Not trying to bust your chops, just interested in your views on the subject.
heard that from andy and a few others. i realize they no longer make them but they can be found. and im not talking about bs pre tuned maps here. im talking custom tunes from real dynos not those bs one honda and others use. come to think about it i dont know if they even made a pcIII for his year though so u could be right about that
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FasterFaster View Post
heard that from andy and a few others. i realize they no longer make them but they can be found. and im not talking about bs pre tuned maps here. im talking custom tunes from real dynos not those bs one honda and others use. come to think about it i dont know if they even made a pcIII for his year though so u could be right about that
.
You really didn't answer my question, but o.k..

I understand that it's what you've "heard", but not what you've got actual hands on experience with.


As far as dynos, other than the same old Cycledyn vs Factory Pro vs Dynojet hype / feud that's been going on for years, allow me to shed some light:

ANY brand of dyno, as long as it has a load control system (usually an eddy current torque cell) and a good exhaust gas analyzer can be a good tuning tool in the hands of a qualified / talented tuner.

An inertia dyno, i.e. one without load control is pretty much useless.

I'm sure someone else like ZXALAN will also probably weigh in on this subject, as he has also spent some time tuning on the dyno.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
You really didn't answer my question, but o.k..

I understand that it's what you've "heard", but not what you've got actual hands on experience with.


As far as dynos, other than the same old Cycledyn vs Factory Pro vs Dynojet hype / feud that's been going on for years, allow me to shed some light:

ANY brand of dyno, as long as it has a load control system (usually an eddy current torque cell) and a good exhaust gas analyzer can be a good tuning tool in the hands of a qualified / talented tuner.

An inertia dyno, i.e. one without load control is pretty much useless.

I'm sure someone else like ZXALAN will also probably weigh in on this subject, as he has also spent some time tuning on the dyno.
I just disagree with the very last statement. if you have good data aquisition software an inertia dyno can still be a helpful tuning tool. i've tuned 100's of cars successfully on dynojet 256c's. while power numbers shown will be different from an eddy-current dyno or a mustang, or whatever else, you can still get a good tune on one. However, if the weight of the roller varies greatly from the actual weight of the vehicle you will need to compensate for the varied load on you're actual tune.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:51 PM   #29
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I just disagree with the very last statement. if you have good data aquisition software an inertia dyno can still be a helpful tuning tool. i've tuned 100's of cars successfully on dynojet 256c's. while power numbers shown will be different from an eddy-current dyno or a mustang, or whatever else, you can still get a good tune on one. However, if the weight of the roller varies greatly from the actual weight of the vehicle you will need to compensate for the varied load on you're actual tune.
Which is exactly what a load control does, therefore eliminating the need to "compensate".

I have no practical experience with car tuning, so I can't comment much further than that.
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
You really didn't answer my question, but o.k..

I understand that it's what you've "heard", but not what you've got actual hands on experience with.


As far as dynos, other than the same old Cycledyn vs Factory Pro vs Dynojet hype / feud that's been going on for years, allow me to shed some light:

ANY brand of dyno, as long as it has a load control system (usually an eddy current torque cell) and a good exhaust gas analyzer can be a good tuning tool in the hands of a qualified / talented tuner.

An inertia dyno, i.e. one without load control is pretty much useless.

I'm sure someone else like ZXALAN will also probably weigh in on this subject, as he has also spent some time tuning on the dyno.
you know your right, i dont have much dynos time expeirence. but i do know that you told me i could get 160hp out of my bike with a couple of boltons and a pcIII. and when i asked some other experienced dyno tunners iin houston and in the us they all laughed at me and said you will never get over 140 with boltons in a 02 1k and i also heard you out source all of your dyno work to honda. what kind do they use?
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:03 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FasterFaster View Post
you know your right, i dont have much dynos time expeirence. but i do know that you told me i could get 160hp out of my bike with a couple of boltons and a pcIII. and when i asked some other experienced dyno tunners iin houston and in the us they all laughed at me and said you will never get over 140 with boltons in a 02 1k and i also heard you out source all of your dyno work to honda. what kind do they use?
that just sounds like you're trying to start drama, not have an actual discussion. lame.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FasterFaster View Post
you know your right, i dont have much dynos time expeirence. but i do know that you told me i could get 160hp out of my bike with a couple of boltons and a pcIII. and when i asked some other experienced dyno tunners iin houston and in the us they all laughed at me and said you will never get over 140 with boltons in a 02 1k and i also heard you out source all of your dyno work to honda. what kind do they use?
Yes, I do use Hondas dyno, they have a Dynojet 250 with an eddy current load cell.


Also if you're quoting, you asked me if close to 160 was possible and I said it was.

Close to 160 with bolt ons? Meaning PCIII, headers, drop in cams, etc.?

You betcha.

Considering a STOCK '02 GSXR1000 makes 144 rwhp on a Superflow dyno, which typically runs on the low side, your assertion that you can't get over 140, is actually going backwards.

http://www.sportrider.com/features/1.../photo_02.html


Here's a link to an '03 (they don't have an '02 listed anymore) with an Akra that picked up almost 7 rwhp with just adding the exhaust:

http://www.akrapovic.net/product-cat...aust/?puid=346

So if we can probably safely assume you'll see at least the same 7 hp gain on your '02 that puts you in the 151 rwhp range, add a PCIII, BMC, drop in cams, custom map and a few other tricks and you'll be bumping up against 160 easily.
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Last edited by Patrick; 01-20-2008 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:18 PM   #33
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that just sounds like you're trying to start drama, not have an actual discussion. lame.
it just me off when i hear people being lied to so they can get there business. you would be mad to if someone told you something they knew wasnt true in order to get you to come in and spend money.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:25 PM   #34
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we never discussed cams or anything else for

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Yes, I do use Hondas dyno, they have a Dynojet 250 with an eddy current load cell.


Also if you're quoting, you asked me if close to 160 was possible and I said it was.

Close to 160 with bolt ons? Meaning PCIII, headers, drop in cams, etc.?

You betcha.

Considering a STOCK '02 GSXR1000 makes 144 rwhp on a Superflow dyno, which typically runs on the low side, your assertion that you can't get over 140, is actually going backwards.

http://www.sportrider.com/features/1.../photo_02.html


Here's a link to an '03 (they don't have an '02 listed anymore) with an Akra that picked up almost 7 rwhp with just adding the exhaust:

http://www.akrapovic.net/product-cat...aust/?puid=346
we never discussed cams nor etc. it was pc3 anf full yoshimura with a tune. which would NEVER produce evem close to 160 and as far as my bike dynoing 144 goes you and i both know that that is inaccurate. just like the new k8 makes 180 right i dont think so. you can make adyno say whatever you want.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #35
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factory pro is the only way to go. its the only way to get true hp numbers. dyno jet is
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #36
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have you ever actually dynoed your bike?? 144 is pretty close to every near stock o2 1k i've ever seen dyno at. add an exhaust a good tune, air filter and some tweaks, and 155ish is very plausible (which is close to 160, and FAAAR above 140 which is supposed to be impossible).
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXALAN View Post
I dynoed/tuned my old school 01 1000 today also:

alan

Mods are only the pipe and PCIII, stock filter and everything else.


BTW someone post up a chart, I want to look at the correction factors etc.....

2001 GSXR1000, just a pipe and a PCIII.

Not my tune or dyno. Kind of blows holes all in your story.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:33 PM   #38
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you've been brainwashed. there is no "only-way" with anything. take your head out of andy's and do some research of you're own, and form OPINIONS of you're own. don't parrot talk here.
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:33 PM   #39
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factory pro is the only way to go. its the only way to get true hp numbers. dyno jet is

And you make this statement with how many years of experience?
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Old 01-20-2008, 01:38 PM   #40
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as far as my bike dynoing 144 goes you and i both know that that is inaccurate. just like the new k8 makes 180 right i dont think so. you can make adyno say whatever you want.

Search the web, there's tons of dyno charts with similar numbers, BUT I PURPOSEFULLY posted a Superflow which reads lower so you wouldn't dismiss it as a Dynojet.
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