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Old 12-17-2007, 11:01 AM   #1
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Force vs Reason

Why The Gun In Civilization?
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.

Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception.


Reason or force, that's it.


In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as
paradoxical as it may sound to some.


When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.

You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.


The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, or a solitary individual on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats.

The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.


There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job.

That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat, it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.


People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society.

A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.


Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.

This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior
party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a lip at worst.


The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker.

If both are armed, the field is level.


The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.


When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded.


I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it acts as a deterrant to those that would choose to use force as a means of persuasion. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.


It removes force from the equation, and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:03 AM   #2
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:05 AM   #3
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:06 AM   #4
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What about choice?
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:10 AM   #5
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best read of 07.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
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What about choice?
to do what?


people are not always given a choice
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:12 AM   #7
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:15 AM   #8
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Quote:
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to do what?


people are not always given a choice

When confronted by Reason or Force. There is still always choice.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy018 View Post
When confronted by Reason or Force. There is still always choice.
2 seperate things.

If you someone is trying to persuade you by reason, you can choose to do what the person wants or not.
No harm, no foul.

However, if someone tries to persuade you by force, say someone wants to enter your house and cause you harm, you only have a "choice" if you are armed.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
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However, if someone tries to persuade you by force, say someone wants to enter your house and cause you harm, you only have a "choice" if you are armed.
Agreed.^

I actually meant in a non-self-defense situation.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:58 AM   #11
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Excellent read Patrick!

I think the entire country needs to re-evaluate gun laws. Why someone who is not on record for breaking the law should have to be on the record for owning a gun and choosing to carry it is absurd.
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:36 PM   #12
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Nothing like a Marine to explain a complex issue in very simple, laymans terms.
This simple understanding is what was instilled in me during my youth.

"Fore warned is fore armed", Shakespear...
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:49 PM   #13
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Old 12-17-2007, 01:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzy018 View Post
Agreed.^

I actually meant in a non-self-defense situation.
This only applies to those that would use the side arm as a method of self defense.

Criminals that would use the gun as a means of forcible persuassion can only be counter by those armed for self-defense ... COPs and armed citizens.

A non-self defense situation would obviously be a situation where the one doing to persuading is doing to by means of reason ... not by force.
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Old 12-17-2007, 01:46 PM   #15
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pll get killed by there own guns all the time .... and telling the world u carry one only endagers ur life and those around u ....... 90% of pll get killed by a person close 2 them or over money or that pretty girl u sneak out with... the chances of u getting killed by a strager are slim 2 none ... so pll putting up fights bout why they carry one just seems silly 2 me........ if i got one they will never know.. also anybody whos lost loved ones 2 a slug in the brain stays away from them ask a soldier ....

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I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
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pll get killed by there own guns all the time .... and telling the world u carry one only endagers ur life and those around u ....... 90% of pll get killed by a person close 2 them or over money or that pretty girl u sneak out with... the chances of u getting killed by a strager are slim 2 none ... so pll putting up fights bout why they carry one just seems silly 2 me........ if i got one they will never know.. also anybody whos lost loved ones 2 a slug in the brain stays away from them ask a soldier ....
Quote:
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pll get killed by there own guns all the time
Do you have statistics to back this up or is this just a "feeling"?

According to the CDC website, which tracks ALL types of accidental deaths, accidental deaths by firearms for the year 2004, which is the most recent figures available, were .22 of the population. or 649 deaths out of 293,638,158 people.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
. and telling the world u carry one only endagers ur life and those around u .......

Once again, do you have statistics to back this up?
There is study after study that PROVES that violent crime goes down when citizens are legally armed and goes up when they are disarmed.
One need not look any further than the issues Australia is currently having to prove that point.

I personally have protected my own life as well as the lives of my family on several occasions because I was armed. I know in at least 2 of those cases I would not be here if I was unarmed.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
....... 90% of pll get killed by a person close 2 them or over money or that pretty girl u sneak out with... the chances of u getting killed by a strager are slim 2 none ...

Once again, do you have anything to back up your claim?

Let's for an instant believe they're true, if there were no guns would these people still be dead?
Man has been killing man since the stronger one found he could kill the weaker one, whether it be with hands, rocks or a knife.

However a gun can make the odds more even.
A better question to ask, and no I don't have any data, is; How many lives are saved because of a legally armed citizen?

As far as your assertion that 90% of people are killed by people they know, would they be dead if there were no guns?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Javi View Post
.. also anybody whos lost loved ones 2 a slug in the brain stays away from them ask a soldier ....

Really?

My father was a career soldier, I also spent 7 years in the Army.
I have many friends who are current or are former military.
MANY of us, myself included, have lost friends from a firearm, either in the service to our country or later in public life.

By far, the overwhelming majority of us STILL own guns, carry guns and have guns in the home, in direct contrast to what you assert.


You are welcome to your opinion, however I think mine is based more in reality and on fact.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:29 PM   #17
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id go with reason.. and i was wrong the percent of murders by a known person is way less than 90% but still higher that a stranger all the facts i find are from the 90s .. can anybody find a fact on whos killing who ? lol .. strangers or known ?
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:31 PM   #18
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Even if it was someone that I knew who was trying to kill me, I'd still be glad for the defense offered by my sidearm.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
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id go with reason.. and i was wrong the percent of murders by a known person is way less than 90% but still higher that a stranger all the facts i find are from the 90s .. can anybody find a fact on whos killing who ? lol .. strangers or known ?

Most of us would go with reason. No argument there.

The point is that not everyone shares the same belief system.
When that occurs and the other person chooses violence over reason, how do YOU intend to respond?

Also, IMO it wasn't just your percentage that was incorrect, but that's just my perspective.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
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A non-self defense situation would obviously be a situation where the one doing to persuading is doing to by means of reason ... not by force.
Not necessarily.

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