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View Poll Results: Can race be determined at the biological level?
Yes 24 57.14%
No 5 11.90%
eR? Whut chu talkin' bout Willis...? 13 30.95%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-11-2007, 05:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable View Post
LMAO

Credibility is a MAJOR issue, particularly on this subject, with that source and that individual specifically.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:35 PM   #62
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this is only an excerpt

A clustering of populations that does correspond to classical continental "races" can be acheived by using a special class of non-functional DNA, microsatellites. By selecting among microsatellites, it is possible to find a set that will cluster together African populations, European populations, and Asian populations, etc. These selected microsatellite DNA markers are not typical of genes, however, but have been chosen precisely because they are "maximally informative" about group differences. Thus, they tell us what we already knew about the differences between populations of the classical "races" from skin color, face shape, and hair form. They have the added advantage of allowing us to make good estimates of the amount of intermixture that has occurred between populations as a result of migrations and conquests.

The every-day socially defined geographical races do identify groups of populations that are somewhat more closely similar to each other genetically. Most important from the standpoint of the biological meaning of these racial categories, however, most human genetic variation does not show such "race" clustering. For the vast majority of human genetic variations, classical racial categories as defined by a combination of geography, skin color, nose and hair shape, an occasional blood type or selected microsatellites make no useful prediction of genetic differences. This failure of the clustering of local populations into biologically meaningful "races" based on a few clear genetic differences is not confined to the human species. Zoologists long ago gave up the category of "race" for dividing up groups of animal populations within a species, because so many of these races turned out to be based on only one or two genes so that two animals born in the same litter could belong to different "races."


honestly ive always thought we came from a single origin, thus variation between different so called "races" is gonna be minimal. we are all the same species, so who gives a flying fvck if one is black or white, i dont judge based on color, i judge based on ones actions.

a good read:
http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:41 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p0opstlnksal0t View Post
this is only an excerpt

A clustering of populations that does correspond to classical continental "races" can be acheived by using a special class of non-functional DNA, microsatellites. By selecting among microsatellites, it is possible to find a set that will cluster together African populations, European populations, and Asian populations, etc. These selected microsatellite DNA markers are not typical of genes, however, but have been chosen precisely because they are "maximally informative" about group differences. Thus, they tell us what we already knew about the differences between populations of the classical "races" from skin color, face shape, and hair form. They have the added advantage of allowing us to make good estimates of the amount of intermixture that has occurred between populations as a result of migrations and conquests.

The every-day socially defined geographical races do identify groups of populations that are somewhat more closely similar to each other genetically. Most important from the standpoint of the biological meaning of these racial categories, however, most human genetic variation does not show such "race" clustering. For the vast majority of human genetic variations, classical racial categories as defined by a combination of geography, skin color, nose and hair shape, an occasional blood type or selected microsatellites make no useful prediction of genetic differences. This failure of the clustering of local populations into biologically meaningful "races" based on a few clear genetic differences is not confined to the human species. Zoologists long ago gave up the category of "race" for dividing up groups of animal populations within a species, because so many of these races turned out to be based on only one or two genes so that two animals born in the same litter could belong to different "races."


honestly ive always thought we came from a single origin, thus variation between different so called "races" is gonna be minimal. we are all the same species, so who gives a flying fvck if one is black or white, i dont judge based on color, i judge based on ones actions.

a good read:
http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/
Yeah I feel you, people are people and should not be judged based on how they look, where they are from or what race they are.
As for your post I highlighted a few key things stated within it...
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:44 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
LMAO

Credibility is a MAJOR issue, particularly on this subject, with that source and that individual specifically.
thats about all i could find on it

IMO
(and i'm prolly way off from yalls subject)
there is probably some biological differences, but they are minor and not enough to make a man who he is. the difference in people is where they come from not what race they are.
put a guy though a low end school and he'll be dumb
put the same guy through a high end school and college, he'll be smart.
raise em in the ghetto, he'll speak ebonics
raise the same guy in the suburbs, he'll speak (somewhat) proper english (no one speaks proper english anymore)



now answer me this .... why do why guys dominate motorsports? and black guys dominate physical sports?
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:51 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable View Post
thats about all i could find on it

IMO
(and i'm prolly way off from yalls subject)
there is probably some biological differences, but they are minor and not enough to make a man who he is. the difference in people is where they come from not what race they are.
put a guy though a low end school and he'll be dumb
put the same guy through a high end school and college, he'll be smart.
raise em in the ghetto, he'll speak ebonics
raise the same guy in the suburbs, he'll speak (somewhat) proper english (no one speaks proper english anymore)
Fcukin smart man right thurr!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable View Post
now answer me this .... why do why guys dominate motorsports? and black guys dominate physical sports?
I spoke on this earlier in post 32 though, admittedly, hadn't given much though into why white's dominate motorsport's other than upbringing. Generally when you do something longer, you will be better at it than others who hadn't. Blacks, generally grow up doing basketball, footballl, etc while white's in the Carolina's and other southern states tend to get aquainted early, with motorsports...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
I have a theory on this:

Evolution is based on adaptation. Those organisms capable of reproducing dictate the future molecular material or gene pool for the future populous. When blacks were brought to America initially, they worked in the elements out on the farms and plantations correct? Hence, their athletic and muscular builds. Weaker individuals died or were otherwise discarded in both the trip here and during the lengthy indoctrination period. Blacks were required to have bodies capable of with standing the brutal elements as well as be capable of lifting heavy items for lengthy periods of time, athletes. Those individuals most advantageously built for the latter, survived, thus creating a specific set or genetic pool.
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Last edited by CaJuNsOuLjA; 12-11-2007 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:53 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Yeah I feel you, people are people and should not be judged based on how they look, where they are from or what race they are.
As for your post I highlighted a few key things stated within it...
Yes, it is a good read, although i believe the we are very similar, the question at hand is if I belive there are genetic differences between races, Its not really as cut and dry as that though.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
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Yes, it is a good read, although i believe the we are very similar, the question at hand is if I belive there are genetic differences between races, Its not really as cut and dry as that though.
+1...the topic has dumbfounded the most talented of our scientific minds and you are right, it's not as simple as yes or no. You really have to have a grasp of evolution and the evolutionary process, genetics usually helps and biology as it is a must in order to know how these things work and how alleles relate to genes and all the other various terminology. Sadly though, social indoctrinations/misgivings tend to dominate these discussions more so than the science behind it.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:01 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
+1...the topic has dumbfounded the most talented of our scientific minds and you are right, it's not as simple as yes or no. You really have to have a grasp of evolution and the evolutionary process, genetics usually helps and biology as it is a must in order to know how these things work and how alleles relate to genes and all the other various terminology. Sadly though, social indoctrinations/misgivings tend to dominate these discussions more so than the science behind it.
i am fairly versed in this matter, even without college. i was real big into breeding colourbrids/morphs of different boids... i actually wanna get back into it now that i can afford some of the higher end morphs
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:03 PM   #69
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Quote:
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i am fairly versed in this matter, even without college. i was real big into breeding colourbrids/morphs of different boids... i actually wanna get back into it now that i can afford some of the higher end morphs
Yeah I could tell based on some of what you were saying. We disagree but then again, that's the beauty of science. I think I'm gonna take a refresher Anthropology course this coming spring, may need to couple that with a Bio because I haven't had either in 3 or four years...:/:
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:03 PM   #70
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I'd say there are different breeds of humans, but not different races.

If you take a horse and a donkey, you get a mule. If you take an asian person and a caucasion person, you get a asian-caucasion but the person could well look like an asian or a caucasion. You cannot say that you brought two races together and made a new race.

It is more like taking a Thoroughbred and breeding it to a Holsteiner, you get a great Jumper but it is still a horse.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:07 PM   #71
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I'd say there are different breeds of humans, but not different races.

If you take a horse and a donkey, you get a mule. If you take an asian person and a caucasion person, you get a asian-caucasion but the person could well look like an asian or a caucasion. You cannot say that you brought two races together and made a new race.

It is more like taking a Thoroughbred and breeding it to a Holsteiner, you get a great Jumper but it is still a horse.
Yep +1, agreed...though some would say that is mere semantics, problem is, and ultimately why I absolutely agreed with the way you said that is that when you use the term race, you risk associating whatever it is you are saying with some of the sociological connotations, negative and positive dependent upon whom you are speaking with. That, in and of itself has all kinds of implications that veer from the realm and concerns of science.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:13 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faylaricia View Post
I'd say there are different breeds of humans, but not different races.

If you take a horse and a donkey, you get a mule. If you take an asian person and a caucasion person, you get a asian-caucasion but the person could well look like an asian or a caucasion. You cannot say that you brought two races together and made a new race.

It is more like taking a Thoroughbred and breeding it to a Holsteiner, you get a great Jumper but it is still a horse.
i dont think variation between human beings is as drastic as that of horses//zebra, or is enough variance in chromosomal architecture to be considered a different "breed".

Quote:
Since horses, , and zebras, whose evolutionary divergence is relatively recent, show remarkable morphological similarity and capacity to interbreed despite their chromosomes differing considerably
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:17 PM   #73
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It is more like taking a Thoroughbred and breeding it to a Holsteiner, you get a great Jumper but it is still a horse.
the difference between a thoroughbred and holsteiner are vast, genetically speaking. the same as with any breed within a species that human beings have played a role in to isolate certain traits.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:22 PM   #74
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on a more conscience note, there's quite a few geneticists that are starting to believe that the human race came from 1 single man, and 1 single woman. With the time limitations for evolutionary mutations to occur for an ape to evolve into human, its scientifically impossible to have taken place. (this is the view of a FEW, not many geneticists). i am atheist and and thought this was interesting... but i dont even want to get into my warped views on this matter, lol.
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:31 PM   #75
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I'm gonna forward this question to my brother. He's a Genetics Scientist (or something like that) from Johns Hopkins University. I don't think he has much of a life beyond the research lab. /jk

BTW, ArturoC would love my bro, since they are both on the same page in many regards.

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Old 12-11-2007, 06:55 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Fcukin smart man right thurr!



I spoke on this earlier in post 32 though, admittedly, hadn't given much though into why white's dominate motorsport's other than upbringing. Generally when you do something longer, you will be better at it than others who hadn't. Blacks, generally grow up doing basketball, footballl, etc while white's in the Carolina's and other southern states tend to get aquainted early, with motorsports...
i'm leaning more towards nascar and indy car.... everyone drives a car, why do white people drive better


i'm jp mane it all goes back to what i said about where you come from. "i just wanna go fast momma"
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Old 12-11-2007, 07:13 PM   #77
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I am a biologist so I had to post number 3. Nothing you stated made sense. Of course it is biological or we could not tell one person from another by DNA. If you meant is it to the level of species then of course no. To be to that level you could not produce sexually active offspring on interracial marriages.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:00 PM   #78
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I am a biologist so I had to post number 3. Nothing you stated made sense. Of course it is biological or we could not tell one person from another by DNA. If you meant is it to the level of species then of course no. To be to that level you could not produce sexually active offspring on interracial marriages.
there are animals in which hybridization can occur even naturally and produce healthy fertile offspring. but no i dont think he meant refering to "race" as different species. you can have variants of a same species though, and through evolution and climate differences of different localities one could have different so called "races" of a single species.
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Old 12-11-2007, 08:01 PM   #79
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Laymen's:
Can race be determined at the biological level?

Modern science cannot discern this. Only Chuck Norris can.
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:02 AM   #80
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Rob919's Bro's Response

Well, for those interested, this is the response I got from my brother. As I mentioned earlier, this is his area of expertise:

Quote:
Hi Rob,

Please don't use my name, but you're welcome to cite me as your "bro", below.


There's a lot of mixed interpretations that can be made by simply posting these comments, as conclusions, in such a "broad and general" manner. 2 sentences does not make a scientific report. We should not confuse distinctions in terms between " taxonomy" (and the classification of race) versus "scientific taxonomy" (and classification of animal species).


As an anology, there are now hundreds of breeds of dog that arose 'ancestrally' from the gray wolf, yet there is one species, Canis familiaris - the dog. If a Pomeranian mates with a Pug,.. you may call it a new breed (maybe after 9 generations of inbreeding) and call it a PomPuger; but scientifically speaking, whatever it looks like, it'll always be a dog in the same species! And, as there are yellow, chocolate and black labs, no one should argue that these represent different races of labs because of their coat color.


Of course, we (humans) can construct any "taxonomy" you want, especially when it's based on the populations commonly-grouped ancestrial traits. There are without question, obvious genetic differences between "Mongols vs "Chinese" and "Poynesians vs the Malaysians", ... whatever. I agree, these many of these differences can be distinguished at the genetic level.


But here's a quote from Rushton himself;


"...from an evolutionary point of view, superiority can only mean adaptive value--if it even means this. And we've got to realize that each of these populations is perfectly, beautifully adapted to their own ancestral environments ...."[12]


For example, Tibetans have a genetic trait that permits greater circulation of blood and oxygen to their muscles at altitudes up to 14,000 feet, a 'selective advantage', which is something we're researching now ( http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-eno103007.php ). You, I or anyone else we know who goes up to this altitude will likely die to pulmonary hypertension or high altitude edema at this high altitude and low oxygen level, without drug or medical intervention. Iow, Alexander the Great and his army would've passed out and/or become decimated at that altitude had they attempted to conquer that region.

An ancestrial population's habitat and environment heavily shaped its selection of socially- and culturally-derived genetic traits. There are verifiable genetic traits, no doubt. A fair -skinned population in the tropics is unlikely, given it's "selective disadvantage" to UV-mediated skin cancer. Conversely, thin and small is likely a disadvantage in colder climates, where saving heat and more body fat is an advantage. (Note these are general terms) These societies preferences in traits are not driven solely by evolution, per se, but is a human construct that was propogated by a populations unique, yet complex cultural and social constructs.


So "scientifically-speaking", we humans can procreate with someone of any human race, Regardless of our ancestrial lineage. It'll still be a sapien, another 'human being' from your own species. Otherwise if someone you know were able to cross-procreate with another species, then whatever "popped out" from that kinky relationship,... likely did not evolve on this planet.

...Distinctions in 'race' can be determined genetically; but 'scientifically speaking', these distinctions are not a valid or legitimate taxonomic species by definition, nor should it be confused as such.



Signed as,
"Rob's Bro", PhD
Research Scientist
Molecular and Developmental Biologist
My response to the original question is: "ummm yeah, just what he said!"
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