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View Poll Results: Can race be determined at the biological level?
Yes 24 57.14%
No 5 11.90%
eR? Whut chu talkin' bout Willis...? 13 30.95%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-11-2007, 04:46 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Faylaricia View Post
There is no such thing as 'races'.

There is only one race and it is the human race. Studies have shown that there is no sufficient evidence nor difference in the different cultures of humans to group them into their own sub races.

Anthropologically races is an absolut incorrect word.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:49 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p0opstlnksal0t View Post
this is our species
There are no human "races". The only way to distinguish between humans is to ethnically group them.

I believe anthropologists are trying for years to get this of the questionnaires for government, blah blah stuff paperwork.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:50 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
I have a theory on this:

Evolution is based on adaptation. Those organisms capable of reproducing dictate the future molecular material or gene pool for the future populous. When blacks were brought to America initially, they worked in the elements out on the farms and plantations correct? Hence, their athletic and muscular builds. Weaker individuals died or were otherwise discarded in both the trip here and during the lengthy indoctrination period. Blacks were required to have bodies capable of with standing the brutal elements as well as be capable of lifting heavy items for lengthy periods of time, athletes. Those individuals most advantageously built for the latter, survived, thus creating a specific set or genetic pool.
exactly, that is why i think there are more black pro athletes. as bad as it sounds, slave owners did not want the weak to reproduce, and therefore bred the weakness out, many people in this country that are black will be related to those slaves, even if it is minute amounts. and biologically speaking... blacks also have a tendency to have more fast twitch muscle fibers than whites, that is why most can jump higher or run faster... some of it is training, but some is genetic
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cashtown View Post
Well, obviously there are biological differences between sexes and races - otherwise there wouldn't even have been this debate in the first place.

But I see what you're getting at.

I have read quite a bit recently about science's ability to map DNA markers that identify the people's ancestry and race. I think there's no question that at the genetic level there is a difference between races - observed easily in the marked physical traits that are exclusive to the different races as well as in the more difficult to discern internal characteristics such as propensity toward various diseases.
Thank you! Just what I was looking for...

Now to address something which I don't want to turn into a trend. Of course there are things in our DNA which dictate how we will look, however, that is not what I am asking. I am asking whether or not, at the molecular and subsidient (yes I created that word- if Beyonce can do it then dammit, so can I) categories, do you believe there is a way to determine a person's race? Things such as socio-specific diseases, ailments and physical characteristics such as long necks, short necks, round heads, box heads, etc do nothing to speak to anything other than what was established at some point earlier due to conditions and stimuli encountered by a previous ancestor, essentially, what was most advantageous to that ancestor's continued survival.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p0opstlnksal0t View Post
were talking about an incredible whelp of information here. something supercomputers have been working on for the last 10 years. now that it has been mapped we need to actually discern what we are looking at.
Very true...
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:54 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
I have a theory on this:

Evolution is based on adaptation. Those organisms capable of reproducing dictate the future molecular material or gene pool for the future populous. When blacks were brought to America initially, they worked in the elements out on the farms and plantations correct? Hence, their athletic and muscular builds. Weaker individuals died or were otherwise discarded in both the trip here and during the lengthy indoctrination period. Blacks were required to have bodies capable of with standing the brutal elements as well as be capable of lifting heavy items for lengthy periods of time, athletes. Those individuals most advantageously built for the latter, survived, thus creating a specific set or genetic pool.

I came to this same theory a while back, but never talked about it. There was a coach or somebody (white guy) that basically said the same thing and got flamed for saying it.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfuller View Post
exactly, that is why i think there are more black pro athletes. as bad as it sounds, slave owners did not want the weak to reproduce, and therefore bred the weakness out, many people in this country that are black will be related to those slaves, even if it is minute amounts. and biologically speaking... blacks also have a tendency to have more fast twitch muscle fibers than whites, that is why most can jump higher or run faster... some of it is training, but some is genetic
+1, you see exactly where I am coming from and know exactly what I am talking about. Traits can be bred out and can determine the subsequent populous. Cattlers do it with bulls and breeders do it with the Kentucky Derby Champion horses you see.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:57 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArturoC View Post
I came to this same theory a while back, but never talked about it. There was a coach or somebody (white guy) that basically said the same thing and got flamed for saying it.
Sometimes the truth hurts, the weak minded typically hate to hear it, especially if it's not from within...
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:59 PM   #49
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:00 PM   #50
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For those of you who believe that race is in fact a valid taxonomic construct (can be determined at the cellular and molecular levels), I pose another question: Is it plausible to then consider that animal's (non--sapiens) too have biologically discernable races?
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:00 PM   #51
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An excerpt from "Is Race Real" http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Marks/:

The Realities of Races
By Jonathan Marks
Published on: Jun 07, 2006

"Anthropologists have been studying race for over 200 years now, and contrary to what seems to be conventional wisdom (at least as articulated in Leroi’s New York Times essay), they have learned quite a bit about it.

...


Race was a category devised by scholars of the 18th century to summarize an ostensibly natural set of divisions within the human species. We know when, we know by whom, and we know in what forums. Prior to that time, and even into the 19th century, human variation was always interpreted as varying in local terms, not in para-continental terms. Why did race catch on then? Who knows?..

It was, in a phrase, a concept that was good to think with.

As long as you did not think too hard.

...

The trouble was that this was hard to reconcile with known patterns of biology. Nothing was known to be inherited in such a fashion.

...

By the 1930s, a different way of thinking about races had emerged. Race became a large and distinct geographical population. ..Race now becomes simple facts of ancestry and appearance, not something to be diagnosed or identified. ...Such an assertion of qualitative geographical distinctions—race as continent—is not natural, not objective, not value-neutral, not scientific, and not being inferred from the data. It is, rather, the artificial division of a continuum into discrete sections, and the imposition of meaning or significance upon the separation between those sections.


Thus, the best minds and most comprehensive data have never permitted the objective parsing of the human species into any fairly large, fairly small in number, fairly well-bounded, and fairly homogeneous basic constitutive units. Races, as natural divisions of the human species, are thus rather like angels. Many people believe in them, devoutly. They can even tell you what properties they have. But the closer you try to examine them to discover their real nature, the more elusive they become. And ironically, the people who claim to be most familiar with them are the ones to be the most suspicious of.

Anthropology came to the conclusion that race is most fundamentally about the construction of discrete symbolic boundaries within a pattern of geographical diversity that occurs as gradients. History says that the groups delimited as meaningfully different can change with the circumstances, as new identities are created (such as Hispanic or Latino) and others are dissipated (such as Hittite). We see that race is inherited sometimes with, and sometimes without, particular physical or genetic markers."
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:04 PM   #52
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According to the Human Genome Project

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Originally Posted by hornet View Post
because they mapped the entire "genome" of ONE PERSON as opposed to MANY PEOPLE. in due time there will be concrete evidence to support what i have previously said, but that time is not today, nor in the next few years....i'd say a decade should provide ample time to complie a large enough list of "patient zero's" for each race to start identifying specific markers.
Quote:
DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
Simple, BAM...it's what I've been saying but in a more intelligent way...
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:04 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
For those of you who believe that race is in fact a valid taxonomic construct (can be determined at the cellular and molecular levels), I pose another question: Is it plausible to then consider that animal's (non--sapiens) too have biologically discernable races?
yes.... i have a deer chihuahua... it is distinguishably different than the so called "apple-head" chihuahua. both are 100% chihuahua. Look at horses, all different colors and breeds, paint horses, throughbreds, arabians. what about camels... 1 or 2 humps?
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfuller View Post
yes.... i have a deer chihuahua... it is distinguishably different than the so called "apple-head" chihuahua. both are 100% chihuahua. Look at horses, all different colors and breeds, paint horses, throughbreds, arabians. what about camels... 1 or 2 humps?
Would that be considered a racial difference or would it have more to do with interbreding and or sub-special variances? Think of the difference in Pit Bull's and Bull Terrier's...are they separate races or were they products of genetic manipulation and breeding?
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:12 PM   #55
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DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
Link to info cited before
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:13 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Would that be considered a racial difference or would it have more to do with interbreding and or sub-special variances? Think of the difference in Pit Bull's and Bull Terrier's...are they separate races or were they products of genetic manipulation and breeding?
i don't know, but i definately thing it would be considered a different "race".

a good one is clownfish... also know as a percula clown... there are orange ones, and black ones. both are born plain orange, get their stripes later... then one turns black with stripes. would be a different race as well
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
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i don't know, but i definately thing it would be considered a different "race"
sociologically, yes, biologically, mebbe not so much...
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:16 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Faylaricia View Post
Anthropology came to the conclusion that race is most fundamentally about the construction of discrete symbolic boundaries within a pattern of geographical diversity that occurs as gradients. History says that the groups delimited as meaningfully different can change with the circumstances, as new identities are created (such as Hispanic or Latino) and others are dissipated (such as Hittite). We see that race is inherited sometimes with, and sometimes without, particular physical or genetic markers."
I dont think we could possibly say this with the little knowledge we have about the mapped human dna
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:24 PM   #59
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Quote:
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I dont think we could possibly say this with the little knowledge we have about the mapped human dna
This about sums it up and has not been refuted by any reputable scientific entity (as far as I am aware):

Quote:
...no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
That is to say that being that we all originated from some common ancestor, we all have the same basic genetic code and although there will be a variance in frequency of any given allele from one individual to the other, there will never be an allele or group of alleles found in one group that cannot be found in the other. That frequency however, also will not act as a determinant in the establishment of race on the biological level.
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:32 PM   #60
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