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Old 12-12-2007, 10:09 AM   #41
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The other thing that I have been curious about is... why not build this bike off a 2 stroke 250 platform? 250 would be cheaper, the 250 would be lighter than the 450, and it would make the same or more horse power. The only place I can see the 450 being better is in Tq #'s. I personally would rather shave the 40lbs than have the extra torque.
Is there someting Im missing here?
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:37 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsnake1650 View Post
The other thing that I have been curious about is... why not build this bike off a 2 stroke 250 platform? 250 would be cheaper, the 250 would be lighter than the 450, and it would make the same or more horse power. The only place I can see the 450 being better is in Tq #'s. I personally would rather shave the 40lbs than have the extra torque.
Is there someting Im missing here?
Because they are being phased out? :dontknow:
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:58 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsnake1650 View Post
The other thing that I have been curious about is... why not build this bike off a 2 stroke 250 platform? 250 would be cheaper, the 250 would be lighter than the 450, and it would make the same or more horse power. The only place I can see the 450 being better is in Tq #'s. I personally would rather shave the 40lbs than have the extra torque.
Is there someting Im missing here?
Who even makes a 2-stoker anymore? Honda officially discontinued theirs for '08, Kawi hasn't been making the KX250 for a couple of years now, and the Yami and Suzook are soon to go. Not a smart idea to build a new racing class around a platform that has become nearly obsolete.

Not to mention the FI now on the '08 RMZ, and the rest soon to follow suit, that just makes things even better for the class to not have to mess with a carb. Plus the 450's are pretty durable compared to most other MX motors, i.e. no new topend every other race.
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:46 AM   #44
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I can understand why they wouldnt build a class around the 2 stroke...... thats not what I ask. Although by cmra rules wouldnt the 250 2 strokes be in the same class as the 450's???
As far as no one making the 2 strokes anymore... its really not an issue because there will always be part out there.
What I really want to know... is there differences in the chassis that anyone knows of that would make building the 250 any harder than converting a 450? Like I said before, I would prefer the lighter weight 2 stroke over 450 and could save alot of cash. Not really looking to race just trackdays ect and just to do the build
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:00 PM   #45
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Well, the new AMA motocross class structure looks like the 250 two-strokes will now be racing with the 250 four-strokes.
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:36 PM   #46
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I'd just wait a little bit longer. RSD is developing and hopefully be selling DIY kits pretty soon. There are some issues they are having with the rear suspension that they are trying to iron out. I'd rather just let them work out the kinks that way you could get it right the first time.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:02 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsnake1650 View Post
I can understand why they wouldnt build a class around the 2 stroke...... thats not what I ask. Although by cmra rules wouldnt the 250 2 strokes be in the same class as the 450's???
As far as no one making the 2 strokes anymore... its really not an issue because there will always be part out there.
What I really want to know... is there differences in the chassis that anyone knows of that would make building the 250 any harder than converting a 450? Like I said before, I would prefer the lighter weight 2 stroke over 450 and could save alot of cash. Not really looking to race just trackdays ect and just to do the build
There aren't any significant chassis differences currently because 2-strokes are only on the verge of extinction, so they are still running almost identical chassis to the current 4-strokes. Only problem I can really see is getting that big expansion chamber tuned pipe to fit within the bodywork. But the main thing is looking into the future, 2-3yrs after the 2-strokes are extinct, and then you may start seeing significant changes in the chassis that could cause problems.

And I honestly don't think that you would save all that much cash, even though you can get your hands on a 2-stoke for cheaper, the maintenance and rebuild schedule is much more intensive then the current 4-strokes. So, although the 4-stroke will still be slightly more expensive in the end, I think it will just about even out.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingsnake1650 View Post
would prefer the lighter weight 2 stroke over 450 and could save alot of cash.

The 4S engine is slightly heavier, but if I remember correctly, there is/was very little difference in weight between the 450-4s and the 250-2s. It didn't seem significant enough to be an issue. :dontknow:
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:25 PM   #49
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The 4S engine is slightly heavier, but if I remember correctly, there is/was very little difference in weight between the 450-4s and the 250-2s. It didn't seem significant enough to be an issue. :dontknow:
In 05 the crf 450 was 40lbs heavier than the 250. The earlier modle 250s were even lighter. 2000 and 2001 cr 250s were under 200lbs.
I think 40+ lbs is pretty significant
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:35 PM   #50
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'07 CRF-450R
DIMENSIONS
Rake 26.79 degrees
Trail 109.4mm (4.3 inches)
Wheelbase 58.7 inches
Seat Height 37.6 inches
Ground Clearance 13.4 inches
Dry Weight 218.5 pounds
Fuel Capacity 1.9 gallons

'07 CR-250R
DIMENSIONS
Rake 26.5 degrees
Trail 109.8mm (4.32 inches)
Wheelbase 58.3 inches
Seat Height 37.1 inches
Ground Clearance 13.3 inches
Dry Weight 213 pounds
Fuel Capacity 2.0 gallons

Thats 5.5lbs....

And at any rate, you can really build whatever you are inclined to. Fact of the matter is that the class rules have already been defined in a realistic way to sync up with the current and future MX market. I personally would rather build a platform on a more reliable, less maintenance intensive, and FI 450 4-stroke then an obsolete 2-stroke any day of the week.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:13 PM   #51
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^^ 5.5 is more like it.

40lbs would have been a no brainer, but I knew it was fairly small like the 5.5.

And even at 5.5lbs difference, at least the weight is low and centralized so it would have minimum effect.
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:57 PM   #52
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5.5 lbs! Go for the 450, loose a few pounds and you'll have the best of both worlds.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:37 PM   #53
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Just an FYI since it was stated above, 2 strokes are not being phased out altogether. In their current trim, yes they are, but there are new 2stroke engines on the distant horizon. Direct injected 2 strokes with lower emissions than four strokes FTMFW!!!!!

On the other hand, for all practicality purposes, build the thing with a four stroke powerplant. The classes will be there, the parts are there, the aftermarket is there, and the kick sound of a thumper is there!!!!!
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:34 AM   #54
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Just an FYI since it was stated above, 2 strokes are not being phased out altogether. In their current trim, yes they are, but there are new 2stroke engines on the distant horizon. Direct injected 2 strokes with lower emissions than four strokes FTMFW!!!!!
Got a link to more info on this? I have heard about it a couple of times, but havent seen any real details, sounds interesting though...
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:48 AM   #55
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and while we are on the topic, both bikes being 2 stroke or 4 stroke will require maintaining. If the bikes are ridden a lot, it will be cheaper to ride/rebuild the 2-stroke.

with that being said, i love the thumpers!
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:23 AM   #56
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so what exactly are u guys talking about building here ? a motard or a supermono ? i might be of sum assistance in this area since ive pretty muched raced justed about everything !
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:31 AM   #57
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a sportbike trackbike out of a dirtbike power-plant................
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:51 AM   #58
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Got a link to more info on this? I have heard about it a couple of times, but havent seen any real details, sounds interesting though...
all i can really say ATM is somehow i always seem know what i shouldn't know, and when that's the case, i can't really say(or the source won't tell me any more):/: FWIW, one should consider the current trend in ultra low emissions/ultra low maintenance 2 stroke marine engines. Now step back and consider the parent companies of those motor builders, and you'll start to get an idea of who's building what. I will tell you the photo's and motors i have seen were built by the parent company for evinrude, and they have been in this powerplant game a really long time. The talk I've heard(from people waaay higher up this industry food chain than myself) had me bamboozled and daydreaming like a schoolboy. As information becomes available and publicly released, I'll keep the board updated as long as the source keeps me in the loop. Sorry for the vague post, and sorry for the threadjack.

Now back on topic.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:11 PM   #59
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^
a sportbike trackbike out of a dirtbike power-plant................

this is something that has been around for years. back when i first started roadracing around 1993, guys were stuffin' CR500 motors in a Honda NT650 chassis. if i remember correctly, i think billy click even had one for a short time. but i think these guys were burnin up cranks as fast as 125 racers do top-ends.
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:16 PM   #60
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Quote:
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this is something that has been around for years. back when i first started roadracing around 1993, guys were stuffin' CR500 motors in a Honda NT650 chassis. if i remember correctly, i think billy click even had one for a short time. but i think these guys were burnin up cranks as fast as 125 racers do top-ends.
what they're talking about is basically taking a 450 MX bike and making simple changes to build a roadracer. hopefully this link will help you see what all the talk is about. . .
http://www.motorcycle.com/products/4...ect-68605.html
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