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Old 12-03-2007, 03:46 PM   #81
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Her mistake was willingly entering a cop house. Screw that!
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
Her mistake was willingly entering a cop house. Screw that!
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It makes me cry, but real tears not the ones out of my like usual.
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:47 PM   #83
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Your opinion is you think it was excessive, the PD who used the force didn't.
Of course they didn't. That's part of the problem.
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Old 12-03-2007, 03:57 PM   #84
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Of course they didn't. That's part of the problem.
Same could be said of your opinion. You weren't there, they were.
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Old 12-03-2007, 04:05 PM   #85
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Same could be said of your opinion. You weren't there, they were.
and up to this point all we have is their side of the story, and no video to watch. . .until then, we're all just speculating based on past experiences and personal views. Kinda hard for me to come to an educated decision without the other side's views being presented. At this point all we really know is she should have been on birth control a lot sooner in life(my opinion of course, no one get all worked up over it please) and she "resisted" in some form or fashion when he tried to detain her. I can't say who was right or wrong with that little evidence. . .
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Old 12-03-2007, 04:06 PM   #86
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I can't say who was right or wrong with that little evidence. . .
Yet the media and sheeple do it all the time...

I agree with you 100% though.
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:25 PM   #87
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Ok so I am coming in late and am sure that I don't have all the fine details of the thread but I have been told the jest.

As far as tazer being able to kill someone.......

Yes it could. For the person who is responding with the text book definitions of cardiac arrhythmia's you are correct BUT there are other factors that definitions cannot give you. Electricity affects the heart regardless of amps or joules. The heart beats by it's own intrinsic electrical pulse, hence getting EKG readings, etc. Think of a person in afib or symptomatic bradycardia that has to be transcutaneous paced (paced on the chest and not by leads in the heart like a pacemaker). The joules used there are much lower than for defibrillation and it affects the heart and how often it beats. There is a phenomenon called an R on T, which is basically a way to say that if the heart is stimulated at the right moment and it is in normal sinus rhythm (or any other rhythm that can sustain life) then it will CAUSE vtach and/or vfib. Lastly....have you have of precordial thump? If you can thump someone's chest and affect their heart then how can a tazer NOT affect it?

I by no means am implying it is an often occurrence. I am sure that several people have been tazered and survived. Only a couple hundred have died out of several.

On a different note my opinion is that she was unjustly tazered. BUT you know opinions are like ........
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementia View Post
Ok so I am coming in late and am sure that I don't have all the fine details of the thread but I have been told the jest.

As far as tazer being able to kill someone.......

Yes it could. For the person who is responding with the text book definitions of cardiac arrhythmia's you are correct BUT there are other factors that definitions cannot give you. Electricity affects the heart regardless of amps or joules. The heart beats by it's own intrinsic electrical pulse, hence getting EKG readings, etc. Think of a person in afib or symptomatic bradycardia that has to be transcutaneous paced (paced on the chest and not by leads in the heart like a pacemaker). The joules used there are much lower than for defibrillation and it affects the heart and how often it beats. There is a phenomenon called an R on T, which is basically a way to say that if the heart is stimulated at the right moment and it is in normal sinus rhythm (or any other rhythm that can sustain life) then it will CAUSE vtach and/or vfib. Lastly....have you have of precordial thump? If you can thump someone's chest and affect their heart then how can a tazer NOT affect it?

I by no means am implying it is an often occurrence. I am sure that several people have been tazered and survived. Only a couple hundred have died out of several.

On a different note my opinion is that she was unjustly tazered. BUT you know opinions are like ........


i accidently tasered myself.. it was a blast... not wanting to go for second attempt...
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:34 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementia View Post
Ok so I am coming in late and am sure that I don't have all the fine details of the thread but I have been told the jest.

As far as tazer being able to kill someone.......

Yes it could. For the person who is responding with the text book definitions of cardiac arrhythmia's you are correct BUT there are other factors that definitions cannot give you. Electricity affects the heart regardless of amps or joules. The heart beats by it's own intrinsic electrical pulse, hence getting EKG readings, etc. Think of a person in afib or symptomatic bradycardia that has to be transcutaneous paced (paced on the chest and not by leads in the heart like a pacemaker). The joules used there are much lower than for defibrillation and it affects the heart and how often it beats. There is a phenomenon called an R on T, which is basically a way to say that if the heart is stimulated at the right moment and it is in normal sinus rhythm (or any other rhythm that can sustain life) then it will CAUSE vtach and/or vfib. Lastly....have you have of precordial thump? If you can thump someone's chest and affect their heart then how can a tazer NOT affect it?

I by no means am implying it is an often occurrence. I am sure that several people have been tazered and survived. Only a couple hundred have died out of several.

On a different note my opinion is that she was unjustly tazered. BUT you know opinions are like ........

yea thats what i was thinking
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It makes me cry, but real tears not the ones out of my like usual.
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:39 PM   #90
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i already learned the lesson

you have to be a cop to understand we can kill anyone"

thats the response we will always get lol
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nevermind ima bumbass and ill get my wife 2 do it 2nite.
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Old 12-03-2007, 07:31 PM   #91
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Electricity affects the heart regardless of amps or joules. The heart beats by it's own intrinsic electrical pulse, hence getting EKG readings, etc.
True, each individual cell has an intrinsic rate, and when placed together, they work in unison, or are supposed to by the sodium/ potassium pump. An electrical depolarization of the cardiac cells, which are unique to that muscle.
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Think of a person in afib or symptomatic bradycardia that has to be transcutaneous paced (paced on the chest and not by leads in the heart like a pacemaker).
Well, typically, we don't pace a-fib in the field as that usually has a rate that is not bradycardic. If you guys do it different in a clinical setting, that's your deal I don't know that feild. Pacing is reserved for rythyms that are bradycardic an symptomatic. Sure, the energy is lower, measured in ma, but pacing pads are also placed anteriorly and posteriorly to the patient, which gives a specific conduction path through the chest cavity to affect the heart directly. Tazers on the other hand, have electrical poles that are not designed to go through a body, rather affect the area between the two poles, usually only inches appart laterally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dementia View Post
There is a phenomenon called an R on T, which is basically a way to say that if the heart is stimulated at the right moment and it is in normal sinus rhythm (or any other rhythm that can sustain life) then it will CAUSE vtach and/or vfib.
R on T is a phenomenon that occurs naturally, and is a pre-courser to v-fib/ tach. R on T can be caused by a stimulation (like electricity) at a specific time, causing the cardiac muscles to depolarize at the wrong time in the absolut refractory period. Timing that to happen would have to be clinical to reproduce accurately, if it happened accidentally, it would be pure chance.
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Lastly....have you have of precordial thump? If you can thump someone's chest and affect their heart then how can a tazer NOT affect it?
Pre-cordial thump, when properly applied, generates ~1 joule. It is also a direct effect to the heart, and does penetrate the chest cavity. Again, tazers do no produce even 1 joule, and are not designed to penetrate any cavity. Electricity travels the path of least resistance, and when electric poles are placed within an inch or two, it will travel the surface of the skin from pole to pole. It does not magically travel through the body to the heart. Sure, muscular contractions will occur, but are isolated to the affected muscles that the tazer is physically connected to.


Stun devices were originally marketed as "non-lethal" devices. However, based on the judgments of the SEC, this has had to be amended as "less-lethal" devices.

Between September 1999 and October 2004, there were 73 cases of deaths of people soon after having been shocked with Tasers.

About 45% of these were attributed to excited delirium (caused by a subject's interaction with high levels of drug-use), around 30% were as a result of pre-existing cardiovascular conditions or other pre-existing medical conditions, The remainder occurred as a result of head injuries sustained due to falling after being shocked.

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Old 12-03-2007, 07:41 PM   #92
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I would assume that by "in the field" that would mean your an emt right? cool...but that FACT remains that deaths do occur from stun guns. no matter what the medical conditions are, they occur...so what exactly are you trying to prove with the medical definitions?
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Old 12-03-2007, 07:44 PM   #93
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also...all the current info I have seen on the web say 200 deaths within the last 5 years due to stun guns.
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Old 12-03-2007, 07:56 PM   #94
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It's a lot safer to taser someone (not in a police station) than subdue them with a baton. for both. back in the day before tasers if a guy was big, drunk and fighting, it took a lot of shots with a baton to bring them down. and you risked getting it taken away and used on you.
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:00 PM   #95
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Quote:
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It's a lot safer to taser someone (not in a police station) than subdue them with a baton. for both. back in the day before tasers if a guy was big, drunk and fighting, it took a lot of shots with a baton to bring them down. and you risked getting it taken away and used on you.
true...apparently you have to watch out for those pregos hopped up on hormones too,lol. she could have easily out muscled that cop laying face down on the floor like that.
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:08 PM   #96
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let me put this a different way...what if YOUR pregnant wife went into a police station seeking help and things went wrong...what if things went differently and the baby miscarried...would you still have the same opinion? what if mother and child died...would you still have the same opinion? There are still a lot of unknowns involving the use of stun guns and how the human body reacts. There are lots of mentally unstable people out there that need help...should it be the norm to taze them as well when they get worked up? I am not saying that a cop shouldn't use it if it is really necessary, but a woman laying face down on the ground IN a police station. WTF!
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:09 PM   #97
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...so what exactly are you trying to prove with the medical definitions?
The correlation was made between defibrilation and the taser. In my first post replying to that, I made mention that while it's possible that someone may die, the chances are remote that it will be due to the taser energy delivered to the person. You wanted to bring Dementia in to this to "explain" like I was wrong (or that is the impression I got).

All I did was explain that: the method of delivering energy for defibrilation is higher/ different, is given as directly to the heart as possible, most of the time is bi-phasic, and is designed to deliver energy anteriorly to posteriorly to travel through the chest cavity to achieve desired effect. Tasers on the other hand are designed to deliver enough energy to effect muscles to contract, causing a muscular paralysis of sorts, conduct the electricity between two poles (which are inches apart) and across the dermis and surface musculature, and that under the right conditions, can cause death or cardiac arrythmias in certain instances- but are relatively rare.
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also...all the current info I have seen on the web say 200 deaths within the last 5 years due to stun guns.
I haven't seen that, and couldn't find it. The only one I found was the one I posted, which was '99-'04 and was 73. Makes sense that it would be 200 or so in the past 5 years, I know there are probably 4 times as many departments using them in the past 5 years vs the previous 5.
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:10 PM   #98
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true...apparently you have to watch out for those pregos hopped up on hormones too,lol. she could have easily out muscled that cop laying face down on the floor like that.
you will never win, remember that some ppl love the way the govmnt do things nowadays

untill they are the ones being tazered, ran over, shot, etc
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:15 PM   #99
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let me put this a different way...what if YOUR pregnant wife went into a police station seeking help and things went wrong...what if things went differently and the baby miscarried...would you still have the same opinion? what if mother and child died...would you still have the same opinion? There are still a lot of unknowns involving the use of stun guns and how the human body reacts. There are lots of mentally unstable people out there that need help...should it be the norm to taze them as well when they get worked up? I am not saying that a cop shouldn't use it if it is really necessary, but a woman laying face down on the ground IN a police station. WTF!
There you go, you have to define what is in bold above. Make that decision at a moment's notice, less than a split second.
We can "what if" this to death, I understand that it's a debate of sorts and that can be considered. That being the case, I can't think of any situation where my Wife would be in that position. Clearly there is only part of the story being told here, and none of us were there.

I'd rather see a number of less than lethal devices used- there are lots of others. Guess what? Under the right conditions, they'll cause death too, just like restraining someone in a simple manner can. Rember seeing those reports on the news?

On the other hand, I'd also rather see the PD not have any circumstance to use those devices either...
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:16 PM   #100
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you will never win, remember that some ppl love the way the govmnt do things nowadays

untill they are the ones being tazered, ran over, shot, etc
Simple solution, don't do anything to cause you to be tased, run over or shot Simple really.
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