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Old 12-02-2007, 08:31 PM   #101
texlurch
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They told us those were not actual A/F ratio numbers (I thought the same thing when I looked at mine)

It is more like a line to meet; above the line is rich, below is lean
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Old 12-02-2007, 08:34 PM   #102
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Thanks to all who helped to put this together.....had a great time, sorry I had to leave early.


Ended up with a bad alternator on my truck and having to swap that out later in the afternoon otherwise my son and I would have stopped back by to see how things were coming along.
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Old 12-02-2007, 08:56 PM   #103
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Some things to also take into consideration while looking at the graphs and a/f ratio:

There was no ram air effect.

Not all bikes make the best power or driveability at the "optimum" a/f ratio as prescribed by Dynojet.

A bikes a/f curve will be different when run on an eddy current load dyno vs. an inertia dyno, because the engines fuel demand / usage is different when run loaded vs. unloaded.

Some good basic info on dyno tuning and dynos in general can be found here:

http://www.factorypro.com/


I've been tuning on dynos for over 18 years, on everything from old school hydraulic load dynos with mathematically derived graph charts, to todays finest load control dynos with Tuning Link software.


An experienced / talented tuner can achieve superior results with either end of the spectrum, it's just easier with some of the more top of the line equipment available these days.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:11 PM   #104
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Read this to save a bucket of money making your bike faster.

5250 Explained by Shadman:

Torque is the power an engine makes. Any other judge of power is simply a formula modifying torque with mathematics. A foot pound of torque is the force an engine exerts on a rod connected to the crankshaft 1 foot away. Surprisingly, a human arm can exert more force than a 100 ft pound bike. Think of arm wrestling. So if a human and a ZX14 have the same torque, why is the engine so much more powerfull?

Like Speedjunkie mentioned, 5250 is the magic number. Why?

A human might be able to turn the rod 60 revs per minute, while a ZX14 turns the same rod at 9000 rpm. So if you hook up a reduction gearbox to the ZX14 it can spin the motor at 9000 rpm with an output shaft turning 60 rpm, same as a human. But the reduction ratio is 60/9000 which is like 1 to 150. So if you multiply the reduction ratio by engine torque you get 150 times 100 foot pounds = 15,000 foot pounds if the engine is geared to turn the same speed as your right arm.

So some index must be able to convert the two equal forces (100 foot pounds) to some understandable mertix of performance. Horsepower is the easiest for us to comprehend. Horsepower is torque times RPM divided by 5250. In the above example the ZX14 makes 100 x 9000 / 5250 = 171.4 HP. A human makes 100 * 60 / 5250 = 1.14 HP Remember, same torque, but when geared to both output at 60 RPM the bike kills the human arm.

So what does this mean for bikes? Obviously, the higher RPM that a bike can make peak torque means the more HP. Popos HP is high because his torque peaks is way up in the RPMs. A Busa has lots of torque and less HP because the torque is made much lower in the rpm range.

Whaty really needs to be measured to understand which bike is faster is AXLE torque. Axle torque is engine torque, reduced by the gearbox and chain, to create torque on the rear sprocket. Axle torque, in relation to total weight of man and machine is what determines acceleration in any gear.

Take two identical bikes. 100 foot pounds of torque peaks at 10,000 RPM. So horsepower is 190.5. Both bikes have primary reduction of 1 to 3 from the crankshaft to the transmission input shaft. So they both have 300 foot pounds of torque at 3333 RPM at the input shaft. Note, horsepower is still 190.5 at 10,000 rpm.

Now if both bikes have 1 to 1.5 reduction in the transmission for first gear and the ratio at the output shaft / countershaft sprocket will be 1/3 * 1/1.5 = 1 to 4.5 total reduction from the crankshaft. So at 10,000 rpm the countershaft sprocket will turn 2222 rpm with 450 foot pounds of torque. Remember, if you measure horsepower were it will still be 190.5 if the engine is spinning 10,000 rpm.

So now imagine a 15 tooth front sprocket turning a 45 tooth rear sprocket. Reduction ratio is 1 to 3. So now the total reduction from the crankshaft tot he rear wheel is 1/3 * 1/1.5 * 1/3 = 1/13.5. So at 10,000 rpm's the rear sprocket and rear wheel are turning a lazy 741 rpm with 1,350 foot pounds of torque. Still, 190.5 horsepower at the rear wheel.

741 rpm at the wheel on a 24.5 inch total diameter tire (pilot power in 180 / 55) is good for 54 MPH. With a radius of 12 inches on a 180 tire the bike accelerates forward like it is being pulled with 1350 foot pounds of force, kinda like thrust on a jet fighter to put it into perspective.

So how to get acceleration for cheap? Re-gear. Why?

Change out that rear sprocket from a 45 to a 48 (+3 = -6.6% gearing change) and run the math. You get a total reduction of 1/3 * 1/1.5 * 15 / 48 = 1 to 14.4. RPM at the back wheel is 694 RP at 10,000 rpm. Torque is now1440 foot pounds. Speed is now reduced from 54.0 MPH at 10,000 rpm to 50.6 at 10,000. Sure, your bike tops out 6.6% slower in each gear, but it accelerates 6.6% faster. Two bikes, same HP, one is 6.6% faster than the other, simply cause of gearing!

So save your cash you'd spend on engine upgrades, pipes, commanders, cams.....whatever. Just get a smaller front or larger rear sprocket next time you need a new chain. You'll get a performance kick for almost free.

But, here's the disclaimer, your bike will not show any difference on the dyno. None. Actually it might be a tiny bit lower HP due to the fact that you are spending more engine power spinning the rotating parts of the engine up to speed a little bit quicker, but a good dyno should compensate. If you disagree with this theory, please explain how a dyno will show nearly identical horsepower figures in 4th, 5th, or 6th gear.

And to answer your question, my bike is -2 in front, +3 in back. It's a 1300 geared like a 600. At MSRH on the straights nothing was even close to keeping up. It spun up the rear 180 in third gear on the straights. It ran a 9.99 quarter at the strip on a street tire. Sure, it will "only" go about 175 MPH tops now, but who cares. I rarely get it over the ton on public roads
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Last edited by Mr.P; 12-02-2007 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:22 PM   #105
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Quote:
my bike is -2 in front, +3 in back. It's a 1300 geared like a 600
Maybe like a 600 stunt bike!

A street bound 600 geared as such would be like riding a 2 stroke dirt bike, and I'd hate to try to ride a 1000 geared that way.
Can you say "throttle control?"

Lastly I've done low nines on a Busa with nothing more than a pipe, PCIII and -1 on the C/S, so possibly all of that shifting is actually slowing you down.

But hey, if it works for you!

I'm not you Peter, just giving you a hard time!
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:43 PM   #106
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hahahahahaha seriously if yall are gonna do dyno runs yall should really use an actuall dyno and not a piece of that dyno that inticipates hp like the dyno junk. yall need to use an eddy current dyno. i think metric mc has one
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:58 PM   #107
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I think the guys as Powersports did just fine... No need to dog the dyno or its crew... Thanks again to Powersports for letting us use ur dyno...
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:01 PM   #108
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+1, big Props to Wes and crew for putting on the event!
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:02 PM   #109
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not the crew just the brand of dyno
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:06 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassy Chassis View Post
What? You didn't hear me flappin' my trap? I'm a non-stop -talker...it's like a 24/7 thing for me
shh.. I was trying to make a point and now you have ruined it.

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Old 12-02-2007, 10:16 PM   #111
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So Wes or someone from PS.. does the A/F graph relate to real numbers, or what? Would like some clarification for tuning purposes?

I heard him repeatedly tell people that below the dotted line was lean, which is exact opposite of everything I know from A/F monitors and tuning FI cars...
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:27 PM   #112
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+1, big Props to Wes and crew for putting on the event!
+1.......but I'm gonna have the ZX running on all 4 jugs next time!!!!!


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Old 12-02-2007, 11:21 PM   #113
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Quote:
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not the crew just the brand of dyno
A Dynojet DJ250 or 250i is a fine dyno with a brake, just like an EC997a Eddy Current dyno....the winpep software is simple enough and all the new updates help full load tuning. You can tune 100% throttle with a full load(drum brake) with a Dj250 dyno.....I just did mine this saturday.....you get a much better/accurate map created when the engine is under full load. Most tuners just don't use the brake because its hard on tires, hard on motors(at least it sounds like it when the customer is sitting there) and most of the time, stock type bikes with bolt ons can be tuned without the brake and they run fine....>But if you are tuning for peak torque at all throttle %s, the brake is needed to hold the engine at a certain rpm, certain throttle % while sampling AFR and mapping the cells.
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Old 12-03-2007, 07:59 AM   #114
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shh.. I was trying to make a point and now you have ruined it.

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Old 12-03-2007, 09:33 AM   #115
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Diablomanns Secret Mod Prevails!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPHINX View Post
Those figures look slightly strange... too weak hp and torque. And there is a big gaps in horse power for the 600s.

anyway, how much was it for a run on the dyno?

12. CubanGixxeR ( Gxsr 600 ) - 101.91 HP/ 42.11 Torque *Secret Mod*

14. Sassy Chassis ( Gxsr 600 ) - 96.04 HP/ 42.35 Torque

Big Difference!! Plus Popo's numbers!! Even the Guy running the Dyno was surprised!!
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:37 AM   #116
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just because you have 2 gsxr 600's does not mean they are going to put down the exact same hp numbers. There are too many other factors involved ie; gas octane, state of tune, mods and differences in year models.
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:54 AM   #117
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[QUOTE=Patrick;875916]
Lastly I've done low nines on a Busa with nothing more than a pipe, PCIII and -1 on the C/S, so possibly all of that shifting is actually slowing you down.

But hey, if it works for you!QUOTE]

It really does work for me, and everyone who has ridden my bike thinks it works well.

I don't know how I'd do in the 1/4 with the pipe and mods. But the 9.99 was with 270 pound Train 460 on it. And he admitted he didn't really do that well at the track versus his friends.

You have a good point about shifting. At MSRH I did feel like I was losing a liot of time having to shift more when I was leaned over than if I ran stock gearing. And being somewhat out of the seat made the shifting a little harder. But I never got out of 5th gear.

To my surprise, in a straight line it makes the bike much easier to launch, and the shifting isn't really an issue if you are upright and positioned right. You can use lower revs in first and pop a coke can wheelie at 3/4 throttle and modulate to redline, then hammer it in second and the front end stays planted.

I'm sure with another 10-15 horsepower of mods I'd gear it a bit higher so 2nd gear would not power wheelie.
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:15 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadman View Post
1. Shadman ( Busa 1300 ) - 136.20/ 93.3 Torque

Midrange torque baby, ya!!!!! Why does everyone say the Busa makes 150 stock? All that hype.

Thanks Ariel. Now when are we hitting the drags to see what this HP business means?

P
my bike stock made 155.5 hp and 95 ft lb of torque
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:16 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryphin View Post
kawi ruled the 600's haha
Thats only because you have a 636 ... my gixxer came on top of the strait 600 group! (and thats with a clogged air filter!) I ended up replacing it that night with a k&n, and I'm sure now I will prob. be right there next to you on the HP!
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Old 12-03-2007, 10:30 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablomann View Post
12. CubanGixxeR ( Gxsr 600 ) - 101.91 HP/ 42.11 Torque *Secret Mod*

14. Sassy Chassis ( Gxsr 600 ) - 96.04 HP/ 42.35 Torque

Big Difference!! Plus Popo's numbers!! Even the Guy running the Dyno was surprised!!
Actually, Sassy's was not the same year as mine, Cletus's is. here is a better comparison.

12. CubanGixxeR (2007 Gxsr 600) - 101.91 HP/ 42.11 Torque (Slip-on & Diablo mod)
13. Cletus (2007 Gxsr 600) - 99.28 HP/ 40.95 Torque ( 100% bone stock)

I was honestly a little dissapointed ... I was hoping to pull out 105 hp! ... but my air filter was clogged and not breathing right, not sure how much that affected it, but its replaced now, so we'll see next time.
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