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Old 11-25-2007, 02:23 PM   #21
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Lemme clarify... I'm not riding OakHill on a big bike because I don't have the skill. It is a tight, narrow track and I would not feel comfortable there.

I don't have the racing experience needed to say that its a "bad track" for one reason or another... its just not where I PERSONALLY want to ride, based on my complete lack of skill.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody1010 View Post
I am not bashing CMRA at all. I am not blaming my crash on oak hill, it was obviously rider error. Sure having the go carts on the track 2 weeks prior did not help. The track was slicker then usual that weekend.
Nah dude, like I said, I'm not pointing fingers, and nobody should take anything I posted personally unless it applies directly to you.

I just want people to realize that there are going to be issues with every track you go to, many of them are exactly the same as Oak Hill or most of the same. If you don't like the run-off at Oak Hill, you should take a close look at Hallett and TWS (Texas World Speedway). Just like Oak Hill, there are several spots you absolutely don't want to get to at those tracks too. One of the notables is turn 1/2 at TWS (Texas World Speedway)- at that speed, I hope I never make it to crash there and end up at the concrete culvert. Turn 4 and the Nascar wall out of 8a are not too favorable either.

People have lots of reasons for what they do/ say/ post. Polarizing people on issues is some people's form of pleasure, some use it for "ammunition" or as information to damage or someone/ something/ group of people. Trust me, there are people who have legitimate complaints (in their opinion) and I don't discount them.

The fact remains, at some tracks, you're going to have bad days, some days, everyone has a bad day. You could easily duplicate the issues people have at OHR at any other track.

I will concede that Oak Hill is narrow. There are plenty of other issues a lots of other tracks, we've got it pretty dern good here in Texas.
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:48 PM   #23
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:39 PM   #24
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I think there will be some "good" discussion on this at the open board meeting. I have raced at OHR and no, I am not that fast. I really like the layout. Lets face it, it is 80 years old. NO FACILITIES...none. The electricity is marginal at best. Yes all tracks will have issues, heck they even were able to screw up Eagles Canyon. Armco barrier 6" off the track WTF!

While I can see Tom's point, I fail to see where other tracks have the same issues to the severity of OHR. Turn 4 at OHR has a Tire wall 30ft from the track. Hallett while it does have a tire wall issue, the track is still very technical and the FACITIES ARE GREAT. TWS (Texas World Speedway) has the facilities and I think sans 1 corner, is one of the safest tracks around. I have wrecked in T1, and yes the culvert is out there. I bailed off the bike instead of trying to ride it out. T1 is a huge corner with tons of room, yes your haulin , but there is room for a screw up and a recovery.

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Old 11-25-2007, 06:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy"zx6 View Post
patrick has lots of nowledge on this subject
i personally has never done this track and would like to go and see for my self and like tom say make my own opinion,
Due respect to Patrick, but ask him when was the last time he was on that track (no offense Patrick). He can speak for himself, but I'm pretty sure he gets his info from Brandon, and in my opinion, there aren't any others on this bbs (except Bubba, and maybe the random non-posting lurker) that can ride as fast or well as he does. Brandon's opinion carries weight, but I think it applies to those that can run his pace IMHO. I respect the fact that Brandon has issues at his pace, he is not in the minority with that crowd, but there are some guys that run his pace that didn't have those issues too. Since I don't run the pace those guys run, I have no way of knowing if the track is that bad at that pace- all I know is what I hear; but I have my opinion on what I know from riding that track myself.

I've watched several riders run in the 23/24 range at that track without issue at all. Some days, they complain a lot, some days they don't complain at all, some days they praise the traction :shrugs:

I fall in to the group Patrick mentions (I haven't sprinted there in a long time), but I have been on that track lately with a big bike, and ran a mini there too. I just haven't sprinted there since '88, and that was on a bike that had nowhere near the hp of my current GSXR.

Good point Jimmy too, form your own opinion as I suggested, just remember that when you do, when you're looking for all the bad stuff people talk about, you can find those same "bad things" at just about every other track we race. If you find some unique danger, that is something else.

Just think about the source of your information if you are listening to other people. Think about if they may have ulterior motives for a negative opinion. Consider too that the person you're getting "information" from, may not have ever been on that track, not had much time there and had a bad experience (crash), or may never have raced there. Obviously, Patrick's opinion has some weight, he has real data from Brandon.

I think the decision Patrick made to not have his rider race there (and the rider has made that decision too) has merit, but not all of them (the top riders) think that way.

As a final note, then I'll try to leave this, I don't really care who races there or not, nor do I really care which org you choose to race with. Everyone makes their own decisions. I made my decision a long time ago that it wasn't worth it for me to sprint at any track for my own reasons- not everyone agrees with me, and they don't have to. I say this though- make your own opinion based on facts, preferably your own. Beware of listening to those that neigh-sayers who have no basis or real knowledge of such things. Riding this track can have huge benefits, or you may say, "eh, it's not for me", but don't think that just because you avoid a track for some real or perceived issues that you won't face those same issues at almost every other track, wholly, or in part. I hope that everyone's track experience, no matter where it is, is a good one, and that you keep the rubber side on the pavement.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawi jm View Post
I think there will be some "good" discussion on this at the open board meeting. I have raced at OHR and no, I am not that fast. I really like the layout. Lets face it, it is 80 years old. NO FACILITIES...none. The electricity is marginal at best. Yes all tracks will have issues, heck they even were able to screw up Eagles Canyon. Armco barrier 6" off the track WTF!

While I can see Tom's point, I fail to see where other tracks have the same issues to the severity of OHR. Turn 4 at OHR has a Tire wall 30ft from the track. Hallett while it does have a tire wall issue, the track is still very technical and the FACITIES ARE GREAT. TWS (Texas World Speedway) has the facilities and I think sans 1 corner, is one of the safest tracks around. I have wrecked in T1, and yes the culvert is out there. I bailed off the bike instead of trying to ride it out. T1 is a huge corner with tons of room, yes your haulin , but there is room for a screw up and a recovery.

John
But you're talking about facilities, the debate is about safety. Aside from the width of some parts of the track (the track has been that wide for many, many years), you can find almost the same issues at almost every other track.

I too crashed at speed in turn 1, and in turn 2, I've also low-sided in 10 there, all at a good clip. I've crashed at Cresson too, all within the past 3 years or so. Each of them can be attributed to one thing- rider error and two mechanical issues. Ironically, and hopefully I'm not tempting fate here, I've not crashed at OHR, and I have more seat time there than any other track.

Hallett, Mercedes Benz (Angleton), TWS (Texas World Speedway), each have something similar- tire walls, concrete walls, armco barriers. Each within or about the same and even worse than Oak Hill.

The only real complaint I've heard is the pavement at the 'Hill. All I'm saying is that the people who are having those issues are running 4 or more seconds per lap faster than anyone else, and not even all of those guys are complaining.

Sorry guys, I'm really trying to discuss, not argue, and not interject any emotional comments- hopefully I'm being successful in that. I am serious when I say that people's comments (like Patrick's/ Brandon's) are not disregarded, but taken in context, and others comments are weighted by experience or lack of motive to condemn.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:16 PM   #27
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:27 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy"zx6 View Post
i want to do if ccs comes and have them and then sprints on sunday,
Dude, you may want to re-check, I don't think CCS is doing endurance- that was one of the reasons we're sticking with CMRA (among other reasons). As I understand things, Saturday is for practice time and Sunday is racing (sprints).
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:43 PM   #29
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The only front running expert that is/will be regularly attending CMRA races next year that is not complaining is Danny Kelsey. Ty, Chase, Derek, Craig M., Brandon, Randall K, Cory B., and a few more will not be running OHR (as they say). To these guys, it is not safe. My opinion is, these guys represent the club on a national level. A few of these guys are reconized as being some of the fastest in the nation. So why race there? There is not another track in Texas with saftey issues as severe as OHR...none. Yes T1 is not AS safe as could be, yes Hallett has a close tire wall, but not near as close as OHR. NPR was deemed unsafe after one race. Everyone complained and it was taken off of the "potential" races list. Why not OHR, there seems to be plenty of people not wanting to race there, for as long as I can remember.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:56 PM   #30
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yea, with everyone sitting out I may need to go cherry pick
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:01 PM   #31
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That really is my point. Will the champions of 2008, really have raced a full season against the best. Who ever races OHR all season, will have a HUGE advantage at the end of the year.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawi jm View Post
The only front running expert that is/will be regularly attending CMRA races next year that is not complaining is Danny Kelsey. Ty, Chase, Derek, Craig M., Brandon, Randall K, Cory B., and a few more will not be running OHR (as they say). To these guys, it is not safe. My opinion is, these guys represent the club on a national level. A few of these guys are reconized as being some of the fastest in the nation. So why race there? There is not another track in Texas with saftey issues as severe as OHR...none. Yes T1 is not AS safe as could be, yes Hallett has a close tire wall, but not near as close as OHR. NPR was deemed unsafe after one race. Everyone complained and it was taken off of the "potential" races list. Why not OHR, there seems to be plenty of people not wanting to race there, for as long as I can remember.
Fair enough John, but how many other people are running the pace of those guys? I didn't know about Cory or Derek (kinda surprised about Derek, but you have a closer relationship with him than I do), I thought they were two others who didn't have a beef with it.

I agree that our national caliber riders can be a gauge for where we race, but again, those guys are an elite class- as fast as Brandon and Derek are, they're at the bottom end of that "gauge". It would take all the rest of us mere mortals years of seat time (and some of us would have to go back in time about 20 years) to get to the pace they run there. While it may be dangerous in many of their opinions, the major majority are never going to see those issues at their pace.

I don't know what Marv, Pete, Harry, Mike Guillot, Bubba, Eric Falt, Ricky Parker, Dustin Dominguez, Dane Westby, Craig Montgomery, Ronnie Hay, Tyler MacDonald, etc, etc, etc think about the track other than idle conversation we've had- but I know they continued to run there last year. Some of those guys you have a more personal relationship with than I do, so you may know better- but those guys are respectable too, and as far as I know they'll be there next year again. Maybe not :shrugs:

I think that the pace of the Ty Howards and company may have just been pushed to the point of "too far" at that track, on a couple of bad race weekends for traction. I don't think the track has changed that much in the past two years that those really fast record setting races that happened were a fluke. I think that some bad days contributed to some poor traction for all three race weekends there (the second race weekend there wasn't too bad IIRC). Again though, I must concede that my pace will likely never be much faster than it is right now there, so I really don't know what those guys are feeling at that (or any) track.
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:42 PM   #33
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Tom, to answer your question, the last time I raced Oak Hill was in '00.

I'm basing my opinions / decisions on what I've personally seen while tuning at the track as well as heard from MULTIPLE racers of all skill levels, not just the "elite" fast guys.

I'll try to make my point as succinctly as possible, and at the same time address some of the points others are offering.

First and foremost, let me clear something up;

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO ULTERIOR MOTIVES FOR NOT RACING OAK HILL!


Now, with that out of the way, let's begin.

1) Oak Hill is too "narrow".

This is true, especially in light of the performance of todays bikes, which are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the bikes that were raced there just 5 years ago.
The tracks design was never intended to cope with the speeds todays bikes are capable of, even the 600s.


2) there's little to no runoff.

Once again, combine the tracks physical size, or lack thereof, the proximity of trees, tire walls and gulleys, with the speed of todays bikes and well, you get the picture.


3) The track surface is deteriorating badly.

This is the big one for me.

Grass is growing between spiderwebbed cracks on the edges of the track.

The track has to be Rhino Lined before each race weekend in an attempt to keep it from falling apart.

In fact, our race bodywork looks like it's been shot multiple times with rock salt from a shotgun from

the pea sized pebbles that are being literally ripped from the track surface.

As a result of the deterioration of the track surface, loose pebbles that were once part of the track

surface are scattered about the racing line, or just off of it. Traction is iffy.

It's not much different than encountering a gravel patch on the steet mid corner.



4) I won't even go into the total lack of facilities, to me it's not much of an issue, but to a racer on a

budget with no generator, showers, bathrooms etc. it's a point to be taken into consideration.


While it's true that other tracks have issues, none of them share ALL of the problems Oak Hill has, nor do we race anywhere else 3 times a year.

I understand a lot of the reasoning put forth is "economic", however I think there's other more viable options.

As stated before, this is my 2 cents, based on what I've personally experienced, as well as seen and heard about Oak Hill in the last 7-8 years.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:07 AM   #34
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:15 AM   #35
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They don't care. And why for that matter? OHR has had "issues" for years and the CMRA keeps coming back. OHR has no motivation to spend any money.
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
1) Oak Hill is too "narrow".
This is true, especially in light of the performance of todays bikes, which are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the bikes that were raced there just 5 years ago.
The tracks design was never intended to cope with the speeds todays bikes are capable of, even the 600s.
2) there's little to no runoff.
Once again, combine the tracks physical size, or lack thereof, the proximity of trees, tire walls and gulleys, with the speed of todays bikes and well, you get the picture.
Firstly, good points all. Secondly, I think I've made it quite clear that you are not one of the people I would point a finger at for having ulterior motives (and I know you were just making that clear in your post). Third, my reason for pointing out that you had not ridden there was because you made that point in one of your posts about people's opinion being tossed around that had not ridden there or raced there when you hadn't either.

I think the "narrow" argument is the only one that really holds any water, but that is my opinion. The width of the track is not all that bad IMHO, but it is narrower than the other tracks. You just have to ride within the limit of the width of the track.

Track sealer: well, I can't think of one track that doesn't have sealer on it. While it's true that OHR has more sealer than it did 5 years ago, it's not like the whole track is sealed or something. I think many people are making it out to be worse than it is.

Run off: again, I'll point everyone to take a good look at Hallett and Angleton. TWS (Texas World Speedway) has issues too, but clearly a little better than the others. Even though the run off at TWS (Texas World Speedway) is further off the track, you're also going a lot faster there in the corners so reaching them at a speed is not outside the realm of possibility or likelihood. Angleton, while the track has been somewhat reconfigured, it still has armco in a bad spot ccw, and in the cw direction (I think the wall issue ccw is well-defined, so I'll leave that out since the intent is to run it cw) the concrete wall on the track is somewhat taken out of play, I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to play a scenario where someone could plant themselves in it. Hallett, unless you've been there, it's hard to describe. Aside from whatever it was that they put on that track the last time (which seems to work fine in the dry), the run off there is less than favorable, and tire walls come in to play (the biggest obstacle).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
3) The track surface is deteriorating badly.
This is the big one for me.
Grass is growing between spiderwebbed cracks on the edges of the track.
The track has to be Rhino Lined before each race weekend in an attempt to keep it from falling apart.
In fact, our race bodywork looks like it's been shot multiple times with rock salt from a shotgun from the pea sized pebbles that are being literally ripped from the track surface.
As a result of the deterioration of the track surface, loose pebbles that were once part of the track surface are scattered about the racing line, or just off of it. Traction is iffy.
It's not much different than encountering a gravel patch on the steet mid corner.
Right, and this is the most common thing I've heard bandied about. The thing is, TWS (Texas World Speedway) is just as bad if not worse. I remember for years people complaining about the surface deterioration, but that has gone by the wayside since the group of good people removed the wall in 8a. The back section of that track is just as deteriorated, if not worse, than OHR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
4) I won't even go into the total lack of facilities, to me it's not much of an issue, but to a racer on a budget with no generator, showers, bathrooms etc. it's a point to be taken into consideration.
While it's true that other tracks have issues, none of them share ALL of the problems Oak Hill has, nor do we race anywhere else 3 times a year.
Man, I hear that. I used to sleep in a single cab Chevy with all my stuff in the back. Now that I have a job and am a little more grown up, I've been able to afford the (cheap) Hotel rooms, have friends with Toy Haulers (which I don't remember seeing way back when), we have trailers, generators are cheap, and port o potties, while archaic, are infinitely better than nothing.

Let me make some additional points here:

The track surface has not changed other than sealer since I first ran there. The things being complained about now (like rocks) have been going on for as long as I can remember.

The run-off has been really improved, trees removed, walls moved back, ditches changed/ covered. I think that led by Walter Walker, improvements in run-off is exponential. I saw a guy go off in 4 at the last track day at a good pace (expert racer), while he did touch the wall- that's all he did, and he was on a top expert pace. That tire wall is very well off the track, but it's got to be there to prevent parts/ bikes from getting to the straight between 1 and 2.

In the past 5 years, the pace has gotten wicked fast with lap records consistently falling in huge chunks! This year, February was cold and drizzly- nobody is going to get optimal traction on these weekends or set records. The second weekend was following a kart race weekend, and while traction was not too bad, it wasn't as good as it could have been. That weekend did see some impressive lap times, and I don't recall any of the top racers complaining about the track any more than usual. On the third weekend, it was a lose/ lose proposition. For two weeks straight, there were kart races, and I don't care who ya are, two weeks of kart racing two strokes are going to put a shyteload of oil on the track. Still, the pace there was very fast, and I know that most of the top experts were letting it all hang out, almost to the point of way too much. If it's so bad, why does the track record keep getting beat up and the pace of the entire field get faster, and faster, and faster?

Let me propose this: the track is another part of you as a rider. Like suspension/ tires/ riding technique, you have to ride with and within the boundaries of that track. Let me say that I am in awe of some of the lap times those top racers are capable of, as well as their ability to control a machine at the pace they are able. I say "congratulations" to those few that are able to run 23's and 24's there consistently, I think you have reached the maximum time to circulate that track I think that may be as fast as current technology will let you go around that track. Now, it comes down to rider ability to ride within those confines, just like you have to ride within the confines of your tires and suspension.
Yeah, the place is narrower in a lot of places than a lot of our tracks and it's tough to pass. Well, there's your racer's challenge. It's why we all race- to see who is the better racer within the parameters we're given.

All tracks have the possibility of danger, some have additional dangers, and yes, you can find these same dangers at all of the tracks we run in some form or another- I think Cresson's original track may be the most safe IMHO, and it has some elements that are dangerous too. Racers race

[quote-Jimmyzx6]then my question would be why if they have a track that makes them money, why dont spend the money to get it back into shape and fix the problems it might have, so that the people that like it can keep enjoying it, while they still have cmra willing to do races there or are they waiting for no body to go and then say that now they have no funds cuz nobody races there anymore?[/quote]
Good question, but define "nobody". Sure, there are some that have parted from the CMRA and are vocal disgruntled people, who want to see the club fail. There are also those racers that are disappointed about this past season there because there were (in their opinion) issues with the pavement. Those racers make up a small part of the grid we see at CMRA expert class races. While I think it's too bad that they are threatening not to race there any more for whatever reason (good or bad), I think the grids will still be filled to normal numbers. When you read the CMRA bbs, you're seeing a very small percentage of the membership. The major majority does not get on the bbs at all. We have lots of club racers that are top riders, some with AMA experience, and they aren't even weighing in on the current threads/ polls that go on there, and could care less what is said on the internet.

As far as money, there is a financial report given every year at the end of the year. CMRA does not make that much (if any real) profit that enables them to throw tons of money in to things like a multi-million dollar repave. I'd like to see the track repaved, but factors like the owners, the possibility of TXU coming in for the minerals, and just the fact that it is so much money to do it that it won't be done. Why do they keep running there? Well, it is part of the working budget of the club to generate $XX for the year to operate. If OHR was to be taken out tomorrow, the BOD would have to find other ways to cover the loss, I'm sure it would entail higher entry fees and membership costs. With a new race series coming in, scheduling races is tougher too, and OHR is pretty much available almost any time we want to have a race weekend. They don't have to compete with CCS to get OHR. For instance, CMRA may have gotten a race date "promised" and a tentative schedule made, only to find out later that the track decided to give that date to CCS, so CMRA has to rearrange their schedule or something. With OHR, that isn't an issue.
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:55 AM   #37
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Tom you need a hobby bud.

Just to be clear on my post. I meant that the track owners do not care. I did not imply that the CMRA didn't care. Two different bodies here folks. The CMRA does NOT own OHR. The owners of OHR do not care.....as you can plainly see by the shape of the facility.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:09 AM   #38
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Tom you need a hobby bud.
Racing and trackdays are my hobbies- I just need to find something to do while I have this time off!
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Just to be clear on my post. I meant that the track owners do not care. I did not imply that the CMRA didn't care. Two different bodies here folks. The CMRA does NOT own OHR. The owners of OHR do not care.....as you can plainly see by the shape of the facility.
That may be, I hope that some changes can be made to make the racers happier. I think they've made some great strides in the past 5 years, compared to years prior.

There's a lot of good at that place and with the CMRA. I think it well outweighs any and all of the negatives. Not to mention, these things can be fixed.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:09 AM   #39
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Tom's posts need cliff notes.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:16 AM   #40
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