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Old 11-24-2007, 01:55 PM   #21
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dbuckzx7 View Post
awesome, we got the opportunity to practice our lines in 40-42 degree weather with constant rain...oh and 6" puddles were just an added obstacle
Are you kidding? They never called it off? I'd be if I had paid for that man.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:08 PM   #23
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awesome, we got the opportunity to practice our lines in 40-42 degree weather with constant rain...oh and 6" puddles were just an added obstacle
Were you getting the normal speech this morning - "Be sure to Hydrate!"
I'm sure you'll see lots of posts about how great it was in the afternoon, and everyone who left early missed out on a great afternoon of riding, and how so & so rode 300 track miles.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:14 PM   #24
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Are you kidding? They never called it off? I'd be if I had paid for that man.
nope, they have to rent the track no matter the weather conditions (on a Saturday or Sunday)...on a Monday or Friday (I think) TD they give you credit because the clause allows them to reschedule. He explained it in full....but I wasn't paying too close attention after they mentioned no chances of rainchecks/discounts/credits, etc. for todays TD....that made my conclusion of my Ride Smart.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
Were you getting the normal speech this morning - "Be sure to Hydrate!"
I'm sure you'll see lots of posts about how great it was in the afternoon, and everyone who left early missed out on a great afternoon of riding, and how so & so rode 300 track miles.
I addressed this in the other thread.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:16 PM   #26
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I addressed this in the other thread.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:21 PM   #27
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nope, they have to rent the track no matter the weather conditions (on a Saturday or Sunday)...on a Monday or Friday (I think) TD they give you credit because the clause allows them to reschedule. He explained it in full....but I wasn't paying too close attention after they mentioned no chances of rainchecks/discounts/credits, etc. for todays TD....that made my conclusion of my Ride Smart.
I don't have a problem with them keeping enough of my money to break even (pay the track/rescedule costs/etc) but keeping the profit side me off. And don't you org promoters start with the "there is no profit in this" bs.
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Radar View Post
I don't have a problem with them keeping enough of my money to break even (pay the track/rescedule costs/etc) but keeping the profit side me off. And don't you org promoters start with the "there is no profit in this" bs.
that is my complaint....even 1/2 days worth of credit is better than nothing
and if there is no profit (which I don't mind people making theirs)...why are they in this business??? We all know there is some sort of incentive to promote and run this type of business.....they asked for feedback, this mine.

collect necessary funds to pay off the rental/ambulance, etc. and give the rest back to your clients in some sort of way. It's called customer satisfaction. Maybe even give a voucher for 1/2 off your next TD with some sort of expiration date. Some people won't even use them, some will forget, some will use them. Chances are that everyone who recieves the credit would not use them all at once on the next given TD....this would spread your losses out a little bit so the "hit" that is taken isn't so brutal.....this is for all TD orgs, not just Ride Smart. I don't know the specifics of how it all works, but I am smart enough to know that these people aren't just in business to spread the love to motorcycle enthusiasts although that is an added benefit when a TD goes off without a hitch
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:32 PM   #29
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that is my complaint....even 1/2 days worth of credit is better than nothing
and if there is no profit (which I don't mind people making theirs)...why are they in this business??? We all know there is some sort of incentive to promote and run this type of business.....they asked for feedback, this mine.

collect necessary funds to pay off the rental/ambulance, etc. and give the rest back to your clients in some sort of way. It's called customer satisfaction. Maybe even give a voucher for 1/2 off your next TD with some sort of expiration date. Some people won't even use them, some will forget, some will use them. Chances are that everyone who recieves the credit would not use them all at once on the next given TD....this would spread your losses out a little bit so the "hit" that is taken isn't so brutal.....this is for all TD orgs, not just Ride Smart. I don't know the specifics of how it all works, but I am smart enough to know that these people aren't just in business to spread the love to motorcycle enthusiasts although that is an added benefit when a TD goes off without a hitch
Well Said!
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Old 11-24-2007, 02:41 PM   #30
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it hasnt rained here in PASA GET DOWN DENA!
How bout now????
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dbuckzx7 View Post
collect necessary funds to pay off the rental/ambulance, etc. and give the rest back to your clients in some sort of way. It's called customer satisfaction. Maybe even give a voucher for 1/2 off your next TD with some sort of expiration date.
I hear ya Danny. Trust me, this is a point of contention with every trackday org that has to rent the track (some providers don't have to rent the track, and they have a lot more flexibility- they are fortunate).

There are several solutions, and yes, they make some money, but not as much as you may think. I know for a fact that LSTD doesn't make huge profits, and when they "take a hit", it is a financial hit that comes out of their personal pockets some times. Track rental is the part that bears inflexibility. The tracks like TWS (Texas World Speedway) (especially), could care less if you take the track or not, they want their money. In their eyes, they could have rented the track to a auto club, and those guys would have run in the rain/ cold.

One place where a bit of wiggle room exists is with EMS. Most of the time, it's a nominal cancellation fee if we never have them take the track (meaning canceling them before the event happens). We don't pay cornerworkers, so I don't know about that aspect with another org, but with me, I give the cornerworkers the credits they were going to get (if they show up that morning).

A lot of times, at Cresson, our relationship with that track and long-standing business has some advantages. We have been fortunate in some instances where the track may give us a bit of a break, which makes it easier for us to give credits and not take such a hit.

Think of this too, when we issue credits, we're turning away future paying patrons. Since we limit our numbers on the track, if we have "x" number of spots, and "XX" number of folks are using credits, then it's "XX" number of people that we can't sign up for this track day, so if that works out to be half, then that's half the money we would have made. Because of this, there may be two or more track days where we may break even or not...

Not whining, I just want people to understand, and is the reason for the rain policy and cancellations. Most orgs want you to acknowledge this policy before you sign up. It's a chance you take.

Now, some alternatives exist to minimize the "loss" to the rider. None of which will lessen the cost of the track days. Some people have posted some alternative track day orgs around the country that have policies that "save" the participant their track day that would have been "lost" due to weather. If you research them further, you'll see that while they may only be paying $XX for each track day, there are hidden costs and additional up-front fees that make the cost well above the costs our patrons currently pay.

Ride Smart lost a lot of track days this year- the weather was not good to them. I know they offered some credits on some of those days, some they were not able to. I'm not defending Ride Smart, and certainly not speaking for them, but really when you sign up for a track day in Texas in November, you're taking a really good chance at riding in the rain and cold. Knowing the "rain policy" is a responsibility that falls on the rider/ patron. Blunt, I know, but true none-the-less.

Adding in contingency for riders may be an option, but the cost of trackdays would go up exponentially. Nobody wants to price trackdays out of the average rider's reach, right now, the way things are seems to be the most cost effective way for each rider and organizer.

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to email me with your ideas/ requests for change to the way we do things at LSTD. If you have some good ideas that we can implement, I'm sure we would appreciate it.

We've been lucky this year, next year we may not be so lucky (regarding weather). Whatever it is, I know that the "Big Three" (Macman, Jeff, Wade) are the type of enthusiasts that provide their service for the greater good of motorcycling. Trust me, none of them are getting rich off this. Believe me or not, that's the way it is.

As always, my "door" is open, email, pm, phone.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:11 PM   #32
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Think of this too, when we issue credits, we're turning away future paying patrons. Since we limit our numbers on the track, if we have "x" number of spots, and "XX" number of folks are using credits, then it's "XX" number of people that we can't sign up for this track day, so if that works out to be half, then that's half the money we would have made. Because of this, there may be two or more track days where we may break even or not...
Tom - No disrespect , but your business math is incorrect. If you bring in $150 for a trackday, and KEEP the money you have paid your expenses AND made your profit - what ever it is. If you then issue a 1/2 credit for the NEXT trackday due to rain on the first one you will only take a profit hicky on the 2nd one - period - Not on both, and as Danny said - most likely the folks with the credits will not all be taking their credits all at the same time, thus not hitting you all at once. This is no different from the LSTD policy of cancellation within 7 days - 50% credit toward another track day - LSTD does NOT break even on BOTH days - only 1. There is also the chance they take their credit on a day the org wasn't sold out anyway, which means the payback for the org is at NO cost to anyone in that case - everyone would win in that example. One more thing: when we pay for a day we don't get to ride - the cost of our "ridden" track days DOES go up - no different than if you guys raised the price and had a weather policy, it just might be taste better. Example 1) 10 Trackdays per year x $160 = $1600 / 9 ridden days = $178 per trackday. Example 2) 4 Trackdays per year x $160 = $640 / 3 ridden trackdays = $213 per trackday.
I've been in business for myself for 39 years - I can see both sides , but under extreme circumstances the orgs may need to consider sucking it up and breaking even on one now and then - happens to me in my business - not saying I like it - once in awhile you have to meet the customer 1/2 way.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:13 PM   #33
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:15 PM   #34
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DAM THATS ALOT OF TYPING!
Not if you're fast!
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:55 PM   #35
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i for one agree,i lost(not got robbed) out on two different trackdays,not by choise but just could not get the track.i have a hard time believing the trackday orgs dont make a considerable amount of money.not saying its not true,just hard to believe.i also understand if their "profit"is not so much money but maybe just "free" riding time.its true ,if you sign up for a trackday in november,late never the less,more than likely its not gonna be comfy out there.this is only my first season but next time i will prolly play it by ear on those "maybe" days.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar View Post
If you bring in $150 for a trackday, and KEEP the money you have paid your expenses AND made your profit - what ever it is. If you then issue a 1/2 credit for the NEXT trackday due to rain on the first one you will only take a profit hicky on the 2nd one - period - Not on both
Right, maybe I didn't come across the right way. What I'm saying is, that usually, we give a full credit, sometimes it's half (depending on the situation), and I realize that Danny was saying that orgs should give half. I hear you that you both think that giving a half credit is a good solution- duly noted. Not everyone is happy with a cast-in-stone half credit (some won't even be happy with a full credit, some just won't be happy), but I agree that you both see it as "better than nothing".

If you look at it this way- people will use credits where the credit was earned. Few people go to a track "just because", most of the time, they go to the track that is closest to them. So, if we have a credit situation at TWS (Texas World Speedway), more than likely, people are going to use that credit at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Even if only half of the people who have credits use them at the next event, that's half loss to us because we are only able to sign up half of the people. It's happened, it'll happen again, it's a pill we've had to swallow and likely will continue to have to swallow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radar
LSTD does NOT break even on BOTH days - only 1.
Regardless of when people take the credit, we lose potential paying customers because they are using the credit. We sold out every event this year except one (I think it was the OHR in February, I don't think that one sold out). Knowing that we will likely sell out every event next year too, it's tough having a lot of people using a credit and we're turning away paying customers. But we do it because it's important to the owners to keep great relationships with our customers. Next year, we'll have to turn away 60 people at events throughout the year because we cancelled GSS. Just one of the hazards of the business for the owners. I'm sure they're not in love with the idea, but they do it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radar
when we pay for a day we don't get to ride - the cost of our "ridden" track days DOES go up - no different than if you guys raised the price and had a weather policy, it just might taste better. Example 1) 10 Trackdays per year x $160 = $1600 / 9 ridden days = $178 per trackday. Example 2) 4 Trackdays per year x $160 = $640 / 3 ridden trackdays = $213 per trackday.
That is a sound suggestion there. A lot of these types of scenarios are being examined, and we have a few others as well.

We know this is a dynamic business, and will be more dynamic next year. We haven't been around longer than anyone else in the area for no reason, the owners are smart guys, who have done a great job with diversifying their practices and making changes when necessary. All the while, trying to keep the bottom line in check for patrons and the owners alike, as you probably well know, it's tough to do with a customer base as big as ours.
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Originally Posted by radar
I've been in business for myself for 39 years - I can see both sides , but under extreme circumstances the orgs may need to consider sucking it up and breaking even on one now and then - happens to me in my business - not saying I like it - once in awhile you have to meet the customer 1/2 way.
No way man, I hear ya loud and clear. This is why we do give credits when we can, and have had to "suck it up" plenty of times. Our current practices have been to "suck it up", but that in the long run doesn't really benefit anyone. There has to be an amicable way to get around some of these issues.

Everyone should know too that with some weekends (like CMRA race weekends), there is not a very good (if any) chance of rain cancellations. On race weekends, "cancellations" would be the same basis as the CMRA would use to cancel races, which are pretty stout, but still in the interest of safety. "Safety" though, does not include rain or temperature, but would include hail/ snow/ sleet/ tornado possibility/ dangerous lightning/ etc. So if it's raining and cold on a race weekend, likely, the day would go on as scheduled because it's a practice day.

As I mentioned, we're looking in to a lot of different options- we're here for the long run and don't plan on getting out of this for a long time.

I'd love to hear some more ideas from those that have input such as Radar's, PM or email tom@lstd.com if you have some
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:06 PM   #37
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I like what you have to say, from a business stand point, what you say makes good sense, Thanks for your input and I look forward to participating in a track day with you folks some day soon.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:15 PM   #38
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tomLSTD

I like what you have to say, from a business stand point, what you say makes good sense, Thanks for your input and I look forward to participating in a track day with you folks some day soon.
PM to you Sir.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:15 PM   #39
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Tom - You may have hit the nail on the head, when you mentioned CMRA having a stout cancellation policy. You think they would have raced the day there was ice on the track @ TWS (Texas World Speedway) - we both know they would not have. Now - what about this weekend @ TWS (Texas World Speedway) - I think they would have cancelled, or had it been at MSR - Houston I think they would have cancelled as did Buck. I'm not talking about rain in August. I'm talking about (for all practical purposes) unrideable conditions - needs to be something for those rare days, some gesture / something besides --hey guys go get smooth/go work on your lines.

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Old 11-24-2007, 06:35 PM   #40
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Tom - You may have hit the nail on the head, when you mentioned CMRA having a stout cancellation policy. You think they would have raced the day there was ice on the track @ TWS (Texas World Speedway) - we both know they would not have.
Well, actually, this past February and the year before in February at Oak Hill, we did hold a track day and CMRA subsequently raced. My race bike was frozen- in the trailer. I had to get the heater to thaw the bike out before I road it, and I ended up blowing a freeze plug at the next track day because of it. Both '06 and '07 it was cold, rainy, and I think some would argue there was ice on the track at one time... temps I believe were pretty well stuck in the 30's for most of the day both times. I think this year it did warm up to somewhere around 60 in the afternoon... miserable. Tyler MacDonald (and some other fast guys) were throwin' down 23's and 24's on that track those days, my bawls will never be that big.

Fer sher I can't speak about what Ride Smart does, they are their own entity and will have to answer for their decisions.
Quote:
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Now - what about this weekend @ TWS (Texas World Speedway) - I think they would have cancelled, or had it been at MSR - Houston I think they would have cancelled as did Buck. I'm not talking about rain in August. I'm talking about (for all practical purposes) unrideable conditions - needs to be something for those rare days, some gesture / something besides --hey guys go get smooth/go work on your lines.
I hear you. I hope things work out, and I'm glad I'm not the one dealing with the issue for today's track day.

I think you'll all see some excellent changes with our org, and am excited about next season!
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