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Old 09-25-2007, 10:50 AM   #21
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I'm not the end-all-be-all on this, so those of you with complaints or questions can always email steve@lstd.com.


Don't try to turn a positive in to a negative. It's for everyone's safety. Your personal feelings about MSF or class M are not taken in to consideration.

There are exceptions for racers under the age, and there are other exceptions as well. If you want further clarification about your personal request for exemption, contact Steve. He'll be happy to help.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:17 AM   #22
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If its for safety, I would think you require MSF not an M endorsement for a year. I thought all of the track riders encouraged people to learn at the track, not on the street. This makes it seem otherwise. Learn on the street, then come to the track.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
If its for safety, I would think you require MSF not an M endorsement for a year. I thought all of the track riders encouraged people to learn at the track, not on the street. This makes it seem otherwise. Learn on the street, then come to the track.
I think you see part of the track guys light.... the track is a learning environment to increase your skills and riding abilities, not a place to learn the basics.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:22 AM   #24
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The web site should have said "motorcycle license and or MSF course completion". There will be many exceptions to this rule some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
Child prodigies will be handled on a per prodigy basis........ :-)

The point to our changes reflect our goal of getting un-seasoned riders to ride in the appropriate groups and to take advantage of our beginners riders school. Many 1st timers come out or sign up in the inappropriate group.
I witnessed quite a few riders at the last TWS (Texas World Speedway) event in both the beginner and intermediate groups who had crazy lines and looked like they were way..... out of control. I also saw one rider who ran over the curbing in 2 corners and I finally pulled him in to discuss his lines and to explain the fact that he got 2 really lucky breaks. I have only hit the curbing once and it wasn't pretty. Some of these riders I just mentioned are probably good street riders and may even possess the credentials we are asking for. The main problem I see and where we will focus next year is on intermediate instruction and racing lines and passing. Stay tuned........

All these changes are hard to enforce and often subject to scrutiny.
Either way we are trying to provide the safest track environment possible and most importantly to make a legal statement regarding our requirements.
Somebody can lie, forge, or BS past us but we are making attempts. The web site verbage should be changed now. If you feel you have the basic skills to come out and improve your riding e mail me. Why complain that you can't ride when you have not even tried?
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:27 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
If its for safety, I would think you require MSF not an M endorsement for a year. I thought all of the track riders encouraged people to learn at the track, not on the street. This makes it seem otherwise. Learn on the street, then come to the track.

Somewhat true. I don't want to have someone who doesn't feel comfortable riding their bike at 50% throttle down the front straight at TWS (Texas World Speedway) out there.
I think the track is by far the safest place to improve your skills but.....
I also feel that the basic fundamentals, confidence, and control of your motorcycle should be mastered before coming to a track day. Everyone starts somewhere, just start the basics before coming out and riding the track.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:36 AM   #26
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I think you see part of the track guys light.... the track is a learning environment to increase your skills and riding abilities, not a place to learn the basics.
so where are you wanting these guys to go after MSF, if yall dont wanna ride with them on the street or the track. doesnt sound like you care for the sport to grow or your insterested in helping others. im posing a serious question, not trying to bash. but i get confused with your motives Dbuck. You constantly use the words squid and noobs, but your avartar promotes its. you posted the other day about the all the reasons you didnt wanna ride with jimmys group but then posted about your wheelies in your group. i would assume that was in a lot somewhere, because of they way come across about how to act on public roads. i dont know. it wasnt clarified.

i know one of tracks offers a noob day, but is that all there is to offer these guys?
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:44 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
so where are you wanting these guys to go after MSF, if yall dont wanna ride with them on the street or the track. doesnt sound like you care for the sport to grow or your insterested in helping others. im posing a serious question, not trying to bash. but i get confused with your motives Dbuck. You constantly use the words squid and noobs, but your avartar promotes its. you posted the other day about the all the reasons you didnt wanna ride with jimmys group but then posted about your wheelies in your group. i would assume that was in a lot somewhere, because of they way come across about how to act on public roads. i dont know. it wasnt clarified.

i know one of tracks offers a noob day, but is that all there is to offer these guys?
send him a PM
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:48 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MacMan View Post
The web site should have said "motorcycle license and or MSF course completion". There will be many exceptions to this rule some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
Child prodigies will be handled on a per prodigy basis........ :-)

The point to our changes reflect our goal of getting un-seasoned riders to ride in the appropriate groups and to take advantage of our beginners riders school. Many 1st timers come out or sign up in the inappropriate group.
I witnessed quite a few riders at the last TWS (Texas World Speedway) event in both the beginner and intermediate groups who had crazy lines and looked like they were way..... out of control. I also saw one rider who ran over the curbing in 2 corners and I finally pulled him in to discuss his lines and to explain the fact that he got 2 really lucky breaks. I have only hit the curbing once and it wasn't pretty. Some of these riders I just mentioned are probably good street riders and may even possess the credentials we are asking for. The main problem I see and where we will focus next year is on intermediate instruction and racing lines and passing. Stay tuned........

All these changes are hard to enforce and often subject to scrutiny.
Either way we are trying to provide the safest track environment possible and most importantly to make a legal statement regarding our requirements.
Somebody can lie, forge, or BS past us but we are making attempts. The web site verbage should be changed now. If you feel you have the basic skills to come out and improve your riding e mail me. Why complain that you can't ride when you have not even tried?
thanky you for your response. i dont mean to sound like im complaining. i was just trying to give my input. ill be on the track next month, and im sure ill be just as addicted as everyone else. ive been on the street for 14yrs now, but i can tell i will probably start shifting most of my riding time to the track.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:49 AM   #29
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send him a PM
you are right, feel free to delete my post
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:49 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
so where are you wanting these guys to go after MSF, if yall dont wanna ride with them on the street or the track. doesnt sound like you care for the sport to grow or your insterested in helping others. im posing a serious question, not trying to bash. but i get confused with your motives Dbuck. You constantly use the words squid and noobs, but your avartar promotes its. you posted the other day about the all the reasons you didnt wanna ride with jimmys group but then posted about your wheelies in your group. i would assume that was in a lot somewhere, because of they way come across about how to act on public roads. i dont know. it wasnt clarified.

i know one of tracks offers a noob day, but is that all there is to offer these guys?
All track orgs offer Beginner Groups with Instruction. That is where one should start their track riding career but, these groups are not intended to teach a rider how to operate their bike. That is what MSF and other like courses are for. If you need some help with something else just ask.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:51 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMan View Post
The web site should have said "motorcycle license and or MSF course completion". There will be many exceptions to this rule some of which have already been mentioned in this thread.
Child prodigies will be handled on a per prodigy basis........ :-)

The point to our changes reflect our goal of getting un-seasoned riders to ride in the appropriate groups and to take advantage of our beginners riders school. Many 1st timers come out or sign up in the inappropriate group.
I witnessed quite a few riders at the last TWS (Texas World Speedway) event in both the beginner and intermediate groups who had crazy lines and looked like they were way..... out of control. I also saw one rider who ran over the curbing in 2 corners and I finally pulled him in to discuss his lines and to explain the fact that he got 2 really lucky breaks. I have only hit the curbing once and it wasn't pretty. Some of these riders I just mentioned are probably good street riders and may even possess the credentials we are asking for. The main problem I see and where we will focus next year is on intermediate instruction and racing lines and passing. Stay tuned........

All these changes are hard to enforce and often subject to scrutiny.
Either way we are trying to provide the safest track environment possible and most importantly to make a legal statement regarding our requirements.
Somebody can lie, forge, or BS past us but we are making attempts. The web site verbage should be changed now. If you feel you have the basic skills to come out and improve your riding e mail me. Why complain that you can't ride when you have not even tried?

great idea! it keeps the track alot safer if the people are riding are "supposed" to know basic motorcycle procedures.

i think having the M endorsement for one year is NOT a good idea. maybe just having one, taking a MSF course, or completing a LSTD track class should be enough.
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Last edited by arturo3rd; 09-25-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
so where are you wanting these guys to go after MSF, if yall dont wanna ride with them on the street or the track.
I'll ride with peeps on the streets, just not on backroads at "spirited" paces....I never said I won't ride with them on the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
doesnt sound like you care for the sport to grow or your insterested in helping others. im posing a serious question, not trying to bash. but i get confused with your motives Dbuck.
I'm willing to help/answer any question I can or fee l confident in answering. As a matter of fact, I had a buddy who is new to riding and this forum if I would be intrested in spending sometime with him as he learns to ride, including backroads. I told him yes, but it will be one on one without the "temptation" to get all happy with the throttle as he's surrounded by 15 other "noobs". So, here's my serious answer...if they really want help, they should ask. I'm not offering myself up to "teach" noobs on a public ride that consists of 20+ riders



Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
You constantly use the words squid and noobs, but your avartar promotes its.
It's a posing picture, for my avatar (exactly that)....perhaps you missed this pic somewhere along the line.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
you posted the other day about the all the reasons you didnt wanna ride with jimmys group but then posted about your wheelies in your group. i would assume that was in a lot somewhere, because of they way come across about how to act on public roads. i dont know. it wasnt clarified.
you are absolutely right, I stand behind my reasoning as to why I did not / do not attend Jimmy's ride....too many peeps, plain and simple. As for whoolies, I do them on the street, on the backroads. It's a risk I take, but when I do them, there is room for error. I don't do them while riding on someone's or while in the middle of a tight pack
I've been riding for almost 9 years, I got my whoolies on lock If I were riding with 20 peeps I didn't know, my wheels would be touching the pavement the entire time. The guys I ride with know that I like to whoolie and they expect it from me, I think they also trust my judgement as to when and where I perform them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnix600 View Post
i know one of tracks offers a noob day, but is that all there is to offer these guys?
LSTD offers a beginners riders class as do other trackday orgs. if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
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I'll handle my biz here bro.... no problem
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:01 PM   #34
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i believe there is a significant gap now between the beginer riders class and the racing classes.
in the last trackday i attended with Ride Smart there was a girl who was going extremely slow.
she made several riders nervous as they went around her.
i dont think she gained any speed throughout the day but was very predictable seemed like she was still learning to ride
i guess my point is,just how aggressive should you be on the track?
definetly more than on the street for sure.....right?
as far as the new rules go,its a start and does not affect me or any one i know so its all good
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:09 PM   #35
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I'll handle my biz here bro.... no problem
Thanks for the response. Sorry I posted that in public. Arturo was right. It should have been in a PM. I just get confused as to where some of you are coming from.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
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i guess my point is,just how aggressive should you be on the track?
definetly more than on the street for sure.....right?
That will depends on many factors(group, experience, weather etc..) but as a rule during a trackday you shouldn't be super super aggressive. Remember you are there to learn what you and your bike are doing not going for a track record. Typically I (on the track) to keep it within 80% of myability after that bad reactions start showing up and you can/will hurt yourself and the others around you. If I ride in B group I tone it down quite a bit since people in that group still tend to change their lines and are not comfy with certain types of passing. In the A-Group I bring it up a level and attempt to find a rabbit thats just a little faster to follow but still never push over 80% of my ability. +on the track your working on corner speed not just pulling the thottle back. You'd be amazed how much time you shave off when you relaxx and learn WTF is going instead of trying to be aggressive. I've shaved off alot of time since I realized this and now I'm running pretty good from what I'm told. Enjoy the track and remember there is always the next event to go even faster. I need a fix
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:50 PM   #37
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i'm not aggressive at the track......but i do ride a whole lot harder then i would ever do on the street. it's a given fact that almost everyone does.

hence the statement people always say....."take it to the track"

the track is to find your limits and your bike's limits IMO. as bigcomfy stated, i still ride within 80% of my limits.....and push a little harder each time. it's not a race, and there's no trophies or purses at the end.

the good thing i noticed at the last LSTD day was VERY GOOD police work. they were switching people groups in which they didn't belong in. and keeping an eye out for the questionables. i think people being in the right group is the KEY to a successful trackday.

THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WITH EGO'S OUT THERE. too many people that think they don't belong in the "slow" group because they ride fast with their buddies on the street. but guess what......being fast on the street does not make you fast on the track. no matter how many people hold you up in the beginner's group....if it's your first few trackdays, i wouldn't make the switch until your confident that you know the fundamentals of being on the track. just a fyi....there are racers that still ride in "B" group, or level 2. so there's no shame in staying in a group that you really belong in.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:53 PM   #38
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Guidelines and rules come from past experience and preventative actions. Rules, by and large, are not designed to be perfect and can not be "all encompassing".

I think both requirements have good points that are more important than negative (I actually can't think of any reason not to have both...).

If you are riding a motorcycle, and you have a Class M, you've demonstrated via written test and practical application to the State that you at least know how to operate the vehicle safely on the streets (a verifiable credential).

The MSF is a very good source of education to teach how to handle a motorcycle well, and provides documentation as well. I know I learned a lot when I took it (back in '85, I'm sure it's just as good now as then), and it taught me all kinds of techniques that I actually use on the track (however involuntary it has become). There are advanced classes for MSF too that expound on those skills.

Besides, it's for the new people anyway, those people that aren't within the group don't need to worry about this, and likely possess the credentials anyway.

As I mentioned, stay tuned for some exciting track time next year!
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:55 PM   #39
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Thanks for the response. Sorry I posted that in public. Arturo was right. It should have been in a PM. I just get confused as to where some of you are coming from.
Not a problem, the term squid is used quite often, but just because you have on proper gear, etc. doesn't make you an exemption of the term. I have seen/done plenty of squidly moves (i.e. weaving in/out of cars on the highway, highway wheelies, lack of gear, etc.) in my day. Riding fearlessly and without caution puts ya in the squid bracket if you ask me.
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:01 PM   #40
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Not a problem, the term squid is used quite often, but just because you have on proper gear, etc. doesn't make you an exemption of the term. I have seen/done plenty of squidly moves (i.e. weaving in/out of cars on the highway, highway wheelies, lack of gear, etc.) in my day. Riding fearlessly and without caution puts ya in the squid bracket if you ask me.


i usually fall in that bracket.....that's why i gave up street riding. i would probably kill myself one of these days if i hadn't, although, i do miss cruising around sometimes.
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