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Old 09-24-2007, 08:43 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caligonetx View Post
^^ Add a heavier bike or disportioned rider/bike weight and it can make the ride harder to consider lean angles and so on in the corners.
Not 100% sure what you are trying to say. You should be able to flick any bike into a turn by countersteering, regardless of rider or bike weight. Rake and trail designed into the bike would affect it much more, as well as weight distribution.

Lowering the center of gravity pretty much always makes it easier to change direction of a vehicle.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:52 AM   #42
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Let me just add some clarification..

I am not a big fan of lowering bikes for "style", since I like spirited rides in the twisties. Not because it affects handling, but because stuff drags sooner and more often, which makes me work more sliding off the seat.
I also don't care for the way most bikes look when lowered....

But in the case where a shorter person needs the bike lowered to safely handle it when stopped, then there is no problem.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:27 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugene View Post
it has mainly to do with the lean angles. the lower to the ground your bike is, the lean potential is small. (can't really think of a good example...but i will try this...)just imagine you have an umbrella sitting on top of a cinder block (where you usually hold is perpendicular to the cinder block). then you lean it over on its side, the umbrella would be able to lean over a lot more compared when you do not have the cinder block there. the cinder block can be seen as the gap underneath your bike. the higher that gap is from under ground, the more of a lean angle there is. *hopefully this makes sense*

and shorter wheel base, means it would quicker into a turn. just think of a car vs a 18 wheeler. the car has a shorter wheel base, therefore they can make narrower turns, where as 18 wheelers make wide turns b/c of the longer wheel base.

In other words lowering the center of gravity reduced ground clearance. That's what I said above. This does not effectively worsen handling of the bike and neither does shortening the wheel base. It makes it more nimble.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:31 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XRCajun View Post
In other words lowering the center of gravity reduced ground clearance. That's what I said above. This does not effectively worsen handling of the bike and neither does shortening the wheel base. It makes it more nimble.
From my knowledge your pretty much right. But because the ground clearance is reduced, you cant lean off you bike as far (properly). Which in return does not allow you to turn as fast (properly).

But as stated before, I highly doubt the bike is going to be used to that limit.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:42 AM   #45
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you all are ignoring one MAJOR factor in this equation. SHE BOUGHT A BRAND NEW 600CC SUPERSPORT BIKE. A bike that they undoubtedly sat on BEFORE she bought, and knew then THAT SHE COULDN'T TOUCH THE GROUND. but she bought the bike anyways. SPENT TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS on a bike that she's not even going to use for the purpose it was designed for. but she bought it anyways, probably because it looked pretty, or all the magazines told her it was the best bike to have, so she just had to have it, IGNORING THE FACT THAT SHE DOESN'T FIT ON IT!!

I don't know how you can defend such a bad trail of decisions. It would be one thing if she had some old hand me down bike and couldn't afford to get a bike that she could actually fit, NO, she bought a BRAND NEW $9499 MSRP bike, all the while ignoring the fact that she couldnt even touch the ground on it.

And XRCajun, lowered bikes handle like because you change the front end geometry. You change the trail of the bike, which can completely destroy any handling abilities the bike had. The lowered center of gravity has little to do with the handling change, other than making transitions a litte more difficult. Sportbikes are delicately balanced machines, similar to fighter jets. They are built with agility being the main goal, and then are toned down so that normal humans can operate them. Especially in the 600 class, they are pushing the absolute edge of what a bike is capable of. When you lower the bike, you through all those hundreds and hundreds of hours of engineers deciding the perfect ride height, rake, trail, suspension range, pivot angles, everything. And all just so you can put both feet on the ground at a stop. YOU'RE NOT EVEN RIDING THE BIKE WHEN IT'S STOPPED! why would you change how the bike rides so you can handle it better when it's stopped??
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:46 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lilmckee View Post
From my knowledge your pretty much right. But because the ground clearance is reduced, you cant lean off you bike as far (properly).

But as stated before, I highly doubt the bike is going to be used to that limit.
Why would lowering the bike affect how far you could hang off the bike? You would get your knee down sooner, maybe..

Let's do a "for instance", using hypothetical angles.

Say you have XYZ sportbike. At stock ride height, with proper sag settings, the pegs touch down at a 45 degree lean. Regardless of speed, the lean angle at which you touch down will be the same, excluding suspension compression and othe factors.

Now you lower the bike, and it will touch down at say 40 degrees. In my experience, it doesn't change that drastically, but this is a "for instance", mmm K?

So now, you can't quite get to the edge of the tire, and your corner speed is reduced, assuming you were maxing out before. So you'll have to get off the seat some, to maintain the same corner speed. Prior to lowering, you had more speed available, if you were willing to hang off. After lowering, you have less potential corner speed, but the handling of the bike hasn't changed.

I can see this being an issue at the track for a few very top level riders, but can anyone really say they are using every last bit of clearance on the street?
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by SecretAgent View Post
you all are ignoring one MAJOR factor in this equation. SHE BOUGHT A BRAND NEW 600CC SUPERSPORT BIKE. A bike that they undoubtedly sat on BEFORE she bought, and knew then THAT SHE COULDN'T TOUCH THE GROUND.

And XRCajun, lowered bikes handle like because you change the front end geometry. You change the trail of the bike, which can completely destroy any handling abilities the bike had.
So, since she knew she could get it lowered, and wasn't entering the next SS race, she shouldn't have bought the bike? Interesting point of view I guess. Obviously she should have bought a Shadow, even tho it was her money and choice? How many people that buy new sport bikes use them to even 50% of their potential? Less than 10% I would wager.

Why would you have a gussied up, tricked out Carbon ZX if you aren't tussling with Ben and the boys every weekend? Should have stuck with a Ninja250 using your line of logic.

The only reason the front end geometry would change is if you just lowered the back. If you take the time to do it properly, all the angles will stay the same.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:53 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
Why would lowering the bike affect how far you could hang off the bike? You would get your knee down sooner, maybe..

Let's do a "for instance", using hypothetical angles.

Say you have XYZ sportbike. At stock ride height, with proper sag settings, the pegs touch down at a 45 degree lean. Regardless of speed, the lean angle at which you touch down will be the same, excluding suspension compression and othe factors.

Now you lower the bike, and it will touch down at say 40 degrees. In my experience, it doesn't change that drastically, but this is a "for instance", mmm K?

So now, you can't quite get to the edge of the tire, and your corner speed is reduced, assuming you were maxing out before. So you'll have to get off the seat some, to maintain the same corner speed. Prior to lowering, you had more speed available, if you were willing to hang off. After lowering, you have less potential corner speed, but the handling of the bike hasn't changed.

I can see this being an issue at the track for a few very top level riders, but can anyone really say they are using every last bit of clearance on the street?
Your right, I guess it depends on the size of the person as well, a taller person would need more of a distance to lean. where a shorter person would need less.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:56 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilmckee View Post
Your right, I guess it depends on the size of the person as well, a taller person would need more of a distance to lean. where a shorter person would need less.
Yep, and the taller one doesn't need to lower it in the first place.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
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Yep, and the taller one doesn't need to lower it in the first place.
I concur.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:04 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texlurch View Post
So, since she knew she could get it lowered, and wasn't entering the next SS race, she shouldn't have bought the bike? Interesting point of view I guess. Obviously she should have bought a Shadow, even tho it was her money and choice? How many people that buy new sport bikes use them to even 50% of their potential? Less than 10% I would wager.

Why would you have a gussied up, tricked out Carbon ZX if you aren't tussling with Ben and the boys every weekend? Should have stuck with a Ninja250 using your line of logic.

The only reason the front end geometry would change is if you just lowered the back. If you take the time to do it properly, all the angles will stay the same.
anyone that buys a supersport and does nothing but pose on it, yes, should have bought a cruiser. i ride my bike the way it was meant to be rode, on the track. it does the job i want it to do infinitely better than a ninja 250. so your exaggeration doesn't work. try again.

and yes, the front end geometry is changed, whether you lower the rear of the bike or not. go look up what trail is, because you obviosly don't know what it is right now, and therefore shouldn't be in this discussion in the first place, trying to argue against my points.



btw, trail is the distance from the axle centerline to the steering head centerline, any time you change ride height, you change that distance.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:12 AM   #52
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Yes, I know what trail is. By sliding the tube up in the triple frame 1 or 2 inches, you will decrease trail by maybe 1/4", depending on the rake, which is very steep on todays SS bikes. You will affect it by changing sag settings on the rear as well. That small change is indetectable by the average rider. And what we are talking about here IS the average rider, not the MotoGP. There actually is a difference, and there is room in the world for both.

So anyone that buys a sportbike and doesn't race is a poser? Ok, got that straight. Good to know. Also a nice slap in the face to 3/4 of the people on this forum. But that is your opinion, of course, and we all know what the story is about opinions.....
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:41 AM   #53
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where did i say race in any of my posts?? your attempts at exaggerating what i'm saying to make me out to be wrong are annoying and not working.

and i don't know where you learned about bikes, but 1/4 of trail is a HUGE change in the way the bike will handle. that may be insignifigant to you, but 99% of the rider's i know, will be able to tell that change, whether they know why it changed, or not. trail is one of the main factors deciding how a bike reacts to steering and leaning inputs, even fractions of an inch are immediately noticeable to any rider who has any business being a on sportbike in the first place.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:42 AM   #54
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Yeah, not too happy with it. Im gonna get it back to how it use to even though I wil be on my tiptoes.

Why I lowered it? Cause I should of done research first vs being impulsive that it would impact the handling.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:44 AM   #55
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Did you verify if the front was lowered? If not then yes, it will handle like .
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:45 AM   #56
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lololz guess you were wrong afterall texlurch! she didn't like the way it handled!! and she's an admitted n00b! so much for your UNNOTICEABLE effects from lowering a bike, eh?
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:48 AM   #57
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lololz guess you were wrong afterall texlurch! she didn't like the way it handled!! and she's an admitted n00b! so much for your UNNOTICEABLE effects from lowering a bike, eh?

Maybe cause all the things that should have been down when lower a bike did not take place. :dontknow:
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:51 AM   #58
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I apologize when I said "race", I should have known better and said ride on the track.

But I stand by the fact that the miniscule amount of trail you loose will not affect the bike for the average 60-70% of people who purchase and ride these bikes. When I said 1/4 inch, that is an exageration; when I find time I will figure the geometry and angles on a CBR600 and see just how much it changes.

And I will agree to disagree on how much trail is a factor, since it is nothing more than the resulting measurement of the head angle, fork length and axle location. I have seen many times the factors are swapped around, and the trail varies wildly, but the end result of handling "feel" are the same. You can change tire aspect ratio and get a more dramatic change than what you will see by lowering the bike an inch.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:53 AM   #59
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lololz guess you were wrong afterall texlurch! she didn't like the way it handled!! and she's an admitted n00b! so much for your UNNOTICEABLE effects from lowering a bike, eh?

No, I have stated numerous times that only lowering the back results in an ill handling bike.

That would be a big DUH! on your part, mmm k?
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:54 AM   #60
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Quote:
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I just got my 07 Honda CBR lowered but I have a gut feeling that I got screwed. They were suppose to lower the rear and the front, but my bike looks totally diffrent. It's suppose to be higher on the back, but now it just looks kind of the same on both, meaning the seat is straight (at least thats the way it appears).

Anyone has any advise how I can make sure the front was lowered???
Something else to look for (Back to your original question)...

If both front and rear are lowered, the original side stand is sometimes too long to make the bike stable when it's on the stand. You may have to have some length cut out. Ask your dealer about this when you get back with them.
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