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Old 09-25-2007, 11:09 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
Refer to my last post... Honestly, it is hard to believe everything we are hearing. Hopefully he is getting his due process but, I don't have time to run over to Jena, LA and check. So, I am done with guessing and moving on to something else that needs my time.
Actually injustice upon any american should be worth our time, since it could really happen anywhere and to anyone, including u or me.

But if u don't see the injustice then there lies the lack of attention.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:12 AM   #302
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To me ur adding another factor into that equation which are UTENSILS MADE to kill something/someone and the degree to which the weapon is being used.

If someone SHOOTS AT ME with a pistol (which ain't too far fetched with my mouth, lol), then THEY ARE INTENDING ON KILLING me.

However when ur looking at fists/feet or even blades, that intent is hard to muster. I've seen men beat their wives to a pulp, only to be charged with assault, because they weren't intending on killing her just inflicting injury.
True. It is a little bit of a stretch, but can be related somewhat.

Since a kick to the head can be very deadly, I likened it to a gun in the sense that guns are quite deadly. Maybe not the best analogy...
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:16 AM   #303
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We're not talking about fists. We're talking about kicking someone in the head - which fits the description that YOU gave for deadly force. You want to talk about fists? Punching someone in the throat is deadly force. There's a 'fist' example.
We NEVER established or agreed that kicking a downed individual constituted deadly force NOR did you ever make a profound argument assisting in establishing as much. Since when is there a difference between kicking and punching (feet & fists') when both carry the potentially of seriously injuring or killing given the proper amount of force. I would very much be interested in you pointing to a case, or otherwise establishing precedent, for what it is you are suggesting and that is that a kick to the head, regardless of proximity or position to the victim, both constitutes deadly force and or attempted murder given the same circumstances in terms of the victims condition immediately following the incident and the fact that there were multiple perpetrators therefore making it hard to establish just who did what.

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So somehow your opinion on what a 'valid argument in the court of law' would be carries more weight than my opinion in question? Now that's funny.

It seems that is starting to get to you. Take a chill, it's not that important.
Did I ever say your opinion was essentially garbage? No, I simply was making the point that since you are assuming yourself to know what will and will not not, should and should not happen with regard to this case...you should be better prepared to argue your point on the basis of more than just opinion and what essentially amounts to conjecture, you should base your arguments on precedent, tangible evidence, facts/that which you can prove. You are offering nothing more than what you think should happen, and well, you aren't a judge so what you think isn't much gonna fly so you have to see things from the perspective of either the prosecuting attorney or the defense. Hope that was a bit more clear for ya bud...n no, not getting to me, it'd take alot more than that to get to me...
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:18 AM   #304
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BUT assault and gang activity aren't attempted murder charges, let the severity of the crime set the punishment and attempted murder is crazy considering this kid has had a nice and healthy life less than 3hrs after his traumatic event.
well, keep in mind that attempted murder doesn't mean the victim is incapacitated for a few days. It's an ATTEMPT at severely injuring or killing. Ever been shot at? It didn't kill you and you were able to go about your life even 5 minutes after the event, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt at your life.

I am not saying this is fact, I am just trying to help see maybe how/why they are charged with such.

Last edited by jus10; 09-25-2007 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:26 AM   #305
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Ok, let me attempt to provide a lil perspective or insight here...

1) A kick to the head whether standing or sitting can result in death
2) A punch to either the chest or head can result in death
3) An elbow to the head can result in death
4) A knee to the head or chest can result in death
5) A head delivered to either the head or chest can result in death

Do any of the aforementioned body parts strike you as a deadly weapon?

Here's the legal definition for a "Deadly Weapon": an object whose purpose is to cause death or that when used as an instrument of offense is capable of causing death or sometimes serious bodily harm.

Notice very significant and careful use in the verbiage: object, purpose, etc
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:33 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by jus10 View Post
well, keep in mind that attempted murder doesn't mean the victim is incapacitated for a few days. It's an ATTEMPT at severely injuring or killing. Ever been shot at? It didn't kill you and you were able to go about your life even 5 minutes after the event, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an attempt at your life.

I am not saying this is fact, I am just trying to help see maybe how/why they are charged with such.
Notice that your example included a foreign object whose purpose is to kill, maim or otherwise cause severe injury...?
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:58 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Ok, let me attempt to provide a lil perspective or insight here...

1) A kick to the head whether standing or sitting can result in death
2) A punch to either the chest or head can result in death
3) An elbow to the head can result in death
4) A knee to the head or chest can result in death
5) A head delivered to either the head or chest can result in death

Do any of the aforementioned body parts strike you as a deadly weapon?

Here's the legal definition for a "Deadly Weapon": an object whose purpose is to cause death or that when used as an instrument of offense is capable of causing death or sometimes serious bodily harm.

Notice very significant and careful use in the verbiage: object, purpose, etc
But were they charge with assault with a deadly weapon? Or using deadly force?
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Old 09-25-2007, 11:58 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
We NEVER established or agreed that kicking a downed individual constituted deadly force NOR did you ever make a profound argument assisting in establishing as much. Since when is there a difference between kicking and punching (feet & fists') when both carry the potentially of seriously injuring or killing given the proper amount of force. I would very much be interested in you pointing to a case, or otherwise establishing precedent, for what it is you are suggesting and that is that a kick to the head, regardless of proximity or position to the victim, both constitutes deadly force and or attempted murder given the same circumstances in terms of the victims condition immediately following the incident and the fact that there were multiple perpetrators therefore making it hard to establish just who did what. ...
There's a difference between punching someone in the head and kicking them in the head and you know it.

Quote:
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Did I ever say your opinion was essentially garbage? No, I simply was making the point that since you are assuming yourself to know what will and will not not, should and should not happen with regard to this case...you should be better prepared to argue your point on the basis of more than just opinion and what essentially amounts to conjecture, you should base your arguments on precedent, tangible evidence, facts/that which you can prove. You are offering nothing more than what you think should happen, and well, you aren't a judge so what you think isn't much gonna fly so you have to see things from the perspective of either the prosecuting attorney or the defense. Hope that was a bit more clear for ya bud...n no, not getting to me, it'd take alot more than that to get to me...
It seems that in just about every topic you resort to the same tactic. You want to start talking about 'facts'. Well none of us know the 'facts' unless we were there in the courtroom or read the transcripts. Even then they would be questionable. Reminds me of the 'Vick' thread.

You're not saying that my opinion is garbage but you're implying that yours carries more weight simply because it's presented along with some legal babble. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with the way you're trying to defend six people who gang up on one kid.

I'm bored with this. In two months everyone will forget about it. This BS incident in some po-dunk town of 2,900 people didn't even deserve this much attention. Next Topic.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:03 PM   #309
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[QUOTE=denhou1974;774086]There's a difference between punching someone in the head and kicking them in the head and you know it.



It seems that in just about every topic you resort to the same tactic. You want to start talking about 'facts'. Well none of us know the 'facts' unless we were there in the courtroom or read the transcripts. Even then they would be questionable. Reminds me of the 'Vick' thread.

You're not saying that my opinion is garbage but you're implying that yours carries more weight simply because it's presented along with some legal babble. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with the way you're trying to defend six people who gang up on one kid.

I'm bored with this. In two months everyone will forget about it. This BS incident in some po-dunk town of 2,900 people didn't even deserve this much attention. Next Topic.[/QUOTE]



I think my Iran thread is a better topic. (Of course I started it.)
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:03 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
Notice that your example included a foreign object whose purpose is to kill, maim or otherwise cause severe injury...?
Yes I did, in fact I acknowledged that a few posts back. But what is the purpose of a foot flying at a head? In such a case, that's when it turns into a deadly weapon. Is it always a deadly weapon? No, but neither is a pencil and I've seen it used and may or may not have used it as a shank. It's circumstantial really. However in the end, I'm sure aggravated assault would suffice. I don't think a fair game was played in terms of prosecution.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:13 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denhou1974 View Post
There's a difference between punching someone in the head and kicking them in the head and you know it.
You're right, there is a difference, just not so significant that I am willing to base the severity of a charge on a the perpetrator's choice in which limb to use. It's like saying that both apples and beets are fruit simply because both having varying degrees of sweet.

It seems that in just about every topic you resort to the same tactic. You want to start talking about 'facts'. Well none of us know the 'facts' unless we were there in the courtroom or read the transcripts. Even then they would be questionable. Reminds me of the 'Vick' thread.

You're not saying that my opinion is garbage but you're implying that yours carries more weight simply because it's presented along with some legal babble. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with the way you're trying to defend six people who gang up on one kid.

I'm bored with this. In two months everyone will forget about it. This BS incident in some po-dunk town of 2,900 people didn't even deserve this much attention. Next Topic.[/QUOTE]

I won't apologize that my "method" erks you, that's actually THE POINT OF my method. To fluster you. If you can't make a sound argument to the contrary then either leave it be or try again. As far as carrying more weight, do you actually think your opinion based arguments would carry more weight than my fact AND law based arguments? That's pretty funny if you do. Btw, I'm not defending them, only disagreeing with your assertion that what happened amounts to either attempted murder, use of a deadly weapon of any kind or the use of deadly force.

A reminder of my thoughts on the 6:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
the...actions of the 6 kids who cowardly beat up a single white kid for these actions warrant their arrest and should not be retracted- although I think the trying them as adults may be a bit questionable (I don't know the specific details of the case other than what has been reported in the mainstream media so I refrain judgment for now). In the end, the kids who ganged up on the white kid are cowards and the individuals who hung the nooses were cowards, the white boy that got whooped deserves justice and all parties were wrong (except for the guy who got beat up because there is no mention of what he may or may not have done to prompt the beating).
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:20 PM   #312
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But what is the purpose of a foot flying at a head? In such a case, that's when it turns into a deadly weapon. Is it always a deadly weapon? No, but neither is a pencil and I've seen it used and may or may not have used it as a shank.
Lol, the purpose of the foot may have been to hurt but how would you really establish that it was intended to kill. Like you said, it is all circumstantial but the mere fact that the guy wasn't seriously injured or killed really hurts any argument that a foot acted as a deadly weapon in this case...
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:32 PM   #313
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Lol, the purpose of the foot may have been to hurt but how would you really establish that it was intended to kill. Like you said, it is all circumstantial but the mere fact that the guy wasn't seriously injured or killed really hurts any argument that a foot acted as a deadly weapon in this case...
True. And make no mistake about it, if the defense has even a decent attorney (which you know they're crawling out of the woodwork) then the prosecution has their work cut out for them. Any comments I have made were only to help brainstorm on why they may have charged them with such a charge. There are a shitload of facts we don't have, nor will we so we can only go so far with it.
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:41 PM   #314
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True. And make no mistake about it, if the defense has even a decent attorney (which you know they're crawling out of the woodwork) then the prosecution has their work cut out for them. Any comments I have made were only to help brainstorm on why they may have charged them with such a charge. There are a shitload of facts we don't have, nor will we so we can only go so far with it.
+1, agreed...

Now to the Iran thread, well after i get some work done...haha
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Old 09-25-2007, 12:57 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
I won't apologize that my "method" erks you, that's actually THE POINT OF my method. To fluster you. If you can't make a sound argument to the contrary then either leave it be or try again. As far as carrying more weight, do you actually think your opinion based arguments would carry more weight than my fact AND law based arguments? That's pretty funny if you do. Btw, I'm not defending them, only disagreeing with your assertion that what happened amounts to either attempted murder, use of a deadly weapon of any kind or the use of deadly force.

A reminder of my thoughts on the 6:
I'm laughing.

I'd like to know how you obtained the facts in this case. Did you contact the DA's office or do you have transcripts of the case?

I'd also like you to qualify your law based arguments. How long have you been a licensed criminal attorney?
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:10 PM   #316
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Question jena six

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Yea and it's sad that people don't see it that way. It's all about, "those little 's get what they deserve, bla bla bla..."


what do they deserve???????/
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Old 09-25-2007, 01:12 PM   #317
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what do they deserve???????/
They desrve due process at this point and that is all they deserve.
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Old 09-25-2007, 02:07 PM   #318
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I'm laughing.

I'd like to know how you obtained the facts in this case. Did you contact the DA's office or do you have transcripts of the case?

I'd also like you to qualify your law based arguments. How long have you been a licensed criminal attorney?
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I'm laughing.
I'd like to know how you obtained the facts in this case. Did you contact the DA's office or do you have transcripts of the case?
haha...Yea o-k! I'm basing any facts about what occurred on this [URL="http://www.thejenatimes.net/home_page_graphics/home.html"]link[/QUOTE] , and considering the fact that not only are these are widely accepted, but they are widely consistent throughout the media and haven't been refuted, I think I'm safe here. We're obviously pulling from the same amount of information but you are drawing conclusions based on circumstantial happenings. Deadly force is relative, not absolute as you would suggest. You would have to convince a jury that the assailants intended to kill the victim. To justify a deadly force charge, considering that to deadly force is typically associated with the use of an "object whose purpose is to kill, maim or otherwise injure", you would have to establish that the assailants foot/shoe/whatever acted as a deadly weapon. I'm not thinking you can do that, it's that simple! Whether or not a blow to the head of an unconscious victim can kill does not make the argument for you, to constitute deadly force, he'd have had to have used a deadly weapon. Simple as that! See Mass v. Junta, and read for understanding. The jury gave him the lesser of the manslaughter charge because although he actually killed the victim he did not intend to and he used no weapon. That's what I like to call precedent btw...

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I'd also like you to qualify your law based arguments. How long have you been a licensed criminal attorney?
I hardly even want to dignify this ignorance with a response, but I'll entertain you for the of it. Since when do you have to be a licensed criminal attorney to base an argument on known law when there is so much information on the law that you can do your own research? I mean that's like disregarding me telling you that you can request a deferred adjudication for a speeding ticket if you have no outstanding tickets, the court allows it and your ticket was for more than 25 miles an hour over the limit simply on the basis that I was not a licensed attorney. N that's just stupid...
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Old 09-25-2007, 02:17 PM   #319
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A few fixes from above...

Yea o-k! I'm basing any facts about what occurred on this link , and considering the fact that not only are these facts widely accepted, but are widely consistent throughout the media and haven't been refuted, I think I'm safe here. We're obviously pulling from the same amount of information, but you are drawing conclusions based on circumstantial happenings. Deadly force is relative, not absolute as you would suggest. You would have to convince a jury that the assailants intended to kill the victim. To justify a deadly force charge, considering that deadly force is typically associated with the use of an "object whose purpose is to kill, maim or otherwise injure", you would have to establish that the assailants foot/shoe/whatever acted as a deadly weapon. I'm not thinking you can do that, it's that simple! Whether or not a blow to the head of an unconscious victim can kill does not make the argument work for you, to constitute deadly force, he'd have had to have used a deadly weapon. Simple as that! See Mass v. Junta, and read for understanding. The jury gave him the lesser of the manslaughter charge because although he actually killed the victim, he did not intend to and he used no weapon. That's what I like to call precedent btw...
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Old 09-25-2007, 02:27 PM   #320
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Quote:
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haha...Yea o-k! I'm basing any facts about what occurred on this [URL="http://www.thejenatimes.net/home_page_graphics/home.html"]link , and considering the fact that not only are these are widely accepted, but they are widely consistent throughout the media and haven't been refuted, I think I'm safe here. We're obviously pulling from the same amount of information but you are drawing conclusions based on circumstantial happenings. Deadly force is relative, not absolute as you would suggest. You would have to convince a jury that the assailants intended to kill the victim. To justify a deadly force charge, considering that to deadly force is typically associated with the use of an "object whose purpose is to kill, maim or otherwise injure", you would have to establish that the assailants foot/shoe/whatever acted as a deadly weapon. I'm not thinking you can do that, it's that simple! Whether or not a blow to the head of an unconscious victim can kill does not make the argument for you, to constitute deadly force, he'd have had to have used a deadly weapon. Simple as that! See Mass v. Junta, and read for understanding. The jury gave him the lesser of the manslaughter charge because although he actually killed the victim he did not intend to and he used no weapon. That's what I like to call precedent btw...:
You only know what you've read in the media. Not neccesarily facts. Therefore your sources are no more valid than mine. Opinion=opinion.

Read through the posts. Long ago I posted that I didn't think they should've been charged with attempted murder. The charge was eventually reduced and is irrelevant at this point.

Kicking someone in the head is deadly force. You're not going to change my mind on this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaJuNsOuLjA View Post
I hardly even want to dignify this ignorance with a response, but I'll entertain you for the of it. Since when do you have to be a licensed criminal attorney to base an argument on known law when there is so much information on the law that you can do your own research? I mean that's like disregarding me telling you that you can request a deferred adjudication for a speeding ticket if you have no outstanding tickets, the court allows it and your ticket was for more than 25 miles an hour over the limit simply on the basis that I was not a licensed attorney. N that's just stupid...
You're missing the entire point. Let me rewind it:
Me = wrong
You = right
Why? Because you are a legal expert and you know all the facts.

Truth:
Your source of facts = my source of facts
Your status as a legal expert = my status as a legal expert (none)

Have a nice day

Now where are my bike keys...
MadseasoN is offline   Reply With Quote
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