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Old 09-14-2007, 11:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Beasley View Post
I've wondered how many would show up for a two day event. Would most ride both days or pick sat/Sun? That would be seat time overload. And yes we are going to do more bike only days next year as the demand seems to be there for two groups of 30. Wouldn't want more than two groups to keep the :30 format. It spreads riders out as some go early i the session and some late.
YAY!!!

haha, i liked the all bike day (mh bbq day) it was chaotic and fun at the same time, plus some of my friends are noobs to the track, and i can help out and give them pointers since their scared to come on regular days.
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:28 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longnguyen View Post
IMO ............and experience with the three or four org. in texas they provided the only thing i paid for..........access to the track, nothing more nothing less. I didnt care for any instructors, food, etc. On the otherhand, these TD charge less than big names like code or spencer etc. when i went to one of the camps, it was 1 instructor for every 2 riders, they watched you like a hawk and really talked to you after each session and asked what you wanted to learn or whatever. Each session was also structure for a technique instead of just track time.
Exactly, the orgs here aren't gonna teach you anything, just some basic stuff and boom, you are basically on your own... if you seek advice from instructors, each of them give different opinions and different advice... their advice even conflict each other! If instruction was a big deal to me, then I would definitely get private coaching or go to a school like Code or Freddie...

I wish there was a race school tho... with instructors teaching you how to stuff and pass on the inside or hold your lines to prevent a pass...
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:30 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemiKaze View Post
Exactly, the orgs here aren't gonna teach you anything, just some basic stuff and boom, you are basically on your own... if you seek advice from instructors, each of them give different opinions and different advice... their advice even conflict each other! If instruction was a big deal to me, then I would definitely get private coaching or go to a school like Code or Freddie...

I wish there was a race school tho... with instructors teaching you how to stuff and pass on the inside or hold your lines to prevent a pass...
easy, do a few sprints, and you'll get the hang of it real quick
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:35 AM   #44
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I think yours and BigComfy's suggestions are very good. I like those suggestions better than a lot I have seen in the recent past.

The thing is though, the orgs that offer those things cost a lot of money too.
That is true that they are pricey but the instructors aren't swapping their time for free track time, they are exclusively teaching riders to be better, the instructors here are mostly here on free track time... The HART school I went... I felt it was like a mini Code school, simply because the rider I was with stuck with me through the whole session...
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Old 09-15-2007, 01:47 AM   #45
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I've wondered how many would show up for a two day event. Would most ride both days or pick sat/Sun? That would be seat time overload. And yes we are going to do more bike only days next year as the demand seems to be there for two groups of 30. Wouldn't want more than two groups to keep the :30 format. It spreads riders out as some go early i the session and some late.
I would if there is a discount... I did it for Hallett and it was cheap and awesome!
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:40 AM   #46
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I'd love to have a Sunday track day.
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
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how to stuff and pass on the inside or hold your lines to prevent a pass...
The rider in front has the right of way - CMRA.
If you want to stuff someone, get in front and hold your line and DO NOT park or you will be asking for it.
To prevent passing, go faster.
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:47 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemiKaze View Post
Exactly, the orgs here aren't gonna teach you anything, just some basic stuff and boom, you are basically on your own... if you seek advice from instructors, each of them give different opinions and different advice... their advice even conflict each other! If instruction was a big deal to me, then I would definitely get private coaching or go to a school like Code or Freddie...

I wish there was a race school tho... with instructors teaching you how to stuff and pass on the inside or hold your lines to prevent a pass...
Have you not heard of the numerous local racer schools?
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Old 09-17-2007, 01:55 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ChemiKaze View Post
Exactly, the orgs here aren't gonna teach you anything, just some basic stuff and boom, you are basically on your own... if you seek advice from instructors, each of them give different opinions and different advice... their advice even conflict each other! If instruction was a big deal to me, then I would definitely get private coaching or go to a school like Code or Freddie...

I wish there was a race school tho... with instructors teaching you how to stuff and pass on the inside or hold your lines to prevent a pass...
Second, stuffing someone is the last thing you want to learn. Get into this habit and you will not have a very long race career. One of 2 things is going to happen....

1) You stuff someone and loose it taking both of you out and they are looking for you in the pits.

2) You stuff someone and they are now on the hunt to stuff you on the track. Possibly taking you out or sending you to the dirt to see what the traction is like out there.

Clean passes is what you are looking for and if they are not clean you might want to wave as an apology.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
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Second, stuffing someone is the last thing you want to learn. Get into this habit and you will not have a very long race career. One of 2 things is going to happen....

1) You stuff someone and loose it taking both of you out and they are looking for you in the pits.

2) You stuff someone and they are now on the hunt to stuff you on the track. Possibly taking you out or sending you to the dirt to see what the traction is like out there.

Clean passes is what you are looking for and if they are not clean you might want to wave as an apology.
True.... this isn't exactly motocross. Stuffing in this sport happens but is a fine art that must be aproached with the highest respect to the other rider.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:58 PM   #51
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There is no compromise for seat time. LMS gives you the most. Just train to make the best of it. I try to absorb what I can from the fast guys as much as possible as well. Other orginizations work just as well to accomidate their venue. LMS just keeps it simple and allows you to grow at the pace you should.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:09 PM   #52
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Quote:
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Second, stuffing someone is the last thing you want to learn. Get into this habit and you will not have a very long race career. One of 2 things is going to happen....

1) You stuff someone and loose it taking both of you out and they are looking for you in the pits.

2) You stuff someone and they are now on the hunt to stuff you on the track. Possibly taking you out or sending you to the dirt to see what the traction is like out there.

Clean passes is what you are looking for and if they are not clean you might want to wave as an apology.
That's what I am talking about...
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:41 PM   #53
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When I go to any trackday event, I'm looking for some guidance.
I want someone (don't really care who) to provide me with feedback on what I'm doing right/wrong. And what I can do to improve my skills. I have been lucky enough to meet friends thus far who are more than happy to provide me with non-biasis feedback. I'm very thankfull for the information provided.
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:34 AM   #54
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Sure, it works great for Buck and his program. He is very fortunate that he can do that too.

Several reasons why it doesn't work anywhere else: Has anyone else tried it? Might surprise you.

Multiple groups mean that with crashes and pick-ups, especially on the big tracks like TWS (Texas World Speedway), you can't put people on the track while that's happening. You suggest to go ahead and put people on the track while the crash truck is picking someone up or picking up the bike? I did not suggest that - read my post!

When there are stoppages, who loses time? It's luck of the draw - we still have always gotten more than enough track time, so it is not a problem or a finger pointing issue - we all get to ride more than enough Do you get the next group going and let them run over their allotted time, or do you short them their time.

The above are among the many reasons why you can't do it the way they are fortunate enough to be able run it in Houston. With 80 people, vs 25,It's not 80 vs 25 it's more like 80 vs 60 (assuming 30 cars) the incidents will be much fewer- it's just the odds. More people on the track, more likely that there will be crashes. Like Gretsky says, 100% of shots not taken are not made,I agree - so give it a try or you'll never know - it works elsewhere! the same applies that if you have 80 people, you are more likely for people to crash and cause stoppages.

Here is a question, if an organization is able to have a track day that limits the number of people on the track, with longer sessions, run until 6pm or a little later, would people be willing to pay the extra money for it? I can tell you if you snooze, you will not get into Bucks events - they sell out very quick - the price is slightly higher per event, but not per track mile - still the best value going IMO - I'm not knocking LSTD - great organization, but as someone else mentioned - it is just nice to know when you are going to be up for your next session. Last track day @ MSR - Houston, we had a very long (and unusual) delay due to a crash - ambulance - helicopter - etc. No one (to my knowledge) complained or was upset about the loss of track time. It goes with the turf at any track day - most of us have been the CAUSE of the stoppage at some point in our track riding lives. I (as probably 50% of the riders) still chose not to ride the last session - I had my fill ( 160 track miles ).
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Old 09-18-2007, 12:57 AM   #55
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Quote:
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Second, stuffing someone is the last thing you want to learn. Get into this habit and you will not have a very long race career. One of 2 things is going to happen....

1) You stuff someone and loose it taking both of you out and they are looking for you in the pits.

2) You stuff someone and they are now on the hunt to stuff you on the track. Possibly taking you out or sending you to the dirt to see what the traction is like out there.

Clean passes is what you are looking for and if they are not clean you might want to wave as an apology.
OK, stuff is prolly the wrong word... pass on the inside.. how about that?
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:34 AM   #56
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Quote:
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Several reasons why it doesn't work anywhere else: Has anyone else tried it? Might surprise you.
Yes, we have done this since day one when we started the 20 minute sessions. We STILL practice this. If I had my way, there would be 20 minute sessions and each one would start every 20 minutes. It doesn't happen, simply, because at the tracks we run (with exception of Oak Hill), are too big to take care of business like mechanical problems, or small crashes in a way that doesn't run longer than 20 minutes. This year, with some techniques we have employed, it has not been as much of a problem and we're able to pretty much roll every 20 minutes. So if people watch the clock, they can normally grid up and go when it's their time. Mostly, the only time we don't run at the 20 minute mark is when the ambulance rolls.

So, basically, with us, you can watch the clock and show up 40 minutes after your last session. I (and the guys helping me on the grid) run the sessions and flags with a system that gets each group 20 minutes so that they get on the track and come off, right at 20 minutes.

As I said in the first post, it is great that Buck is able to run his sessions the way he does, he is fortunate that the track is small enough and accessible enough to run at the top and bottom of the hour and mitigate a lot of the problems that may come up. It helps that the time is split with cars, which are in smaller numbers and are usually able to get off the track under their own power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar
Multiple groups mean that with crashes and pick-ups, especially on the big tracks like TWS (Texas World Speedway), you can't put people on the track while that's happening. You suggest to go ahead and put people on the track while the crash truck is picking someone up or picking up the bike? I did not suggest that - read my post!
I did read your post. I didn't see a solution on there, only a statement. So, I asked a question- what is your suggestion to change that situation and keep the time running? That's what this thread is for, right? I'd love to hear the suggestion to make it better. I don't pretend to know it all, and if there is a good, safe solution out there that is better than we currently have, I'm all ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar
The above are among the many reasons why you can't do it the way they are fortunate enough to be able run it in Houston. With 80 people, vs 25,It's not 80 vs 25 it's more like 80 vs 60 (assuming 30 cars) the incidents will be much fewer- it's just the odds. More people on the track, more likely that there will be crashes. Like Gretsky says, 100% of shots not taken are not made,I agree - so give it a try or you'll never know - it works elsewhere! the same applies that if you have 80 people, you are more likely for people to crash and cause stoppages.
First, I seriously doubt that there have been 30 cars on that track at once for a member day. I've attended at least 10-12 member days and never have seen that many cars. Often, there aren't more than 10 cars on the track at once. I've also been there for Buck's track days and seen the same thing with the cars. Second, if cars "crash" (generic term, usually cars only run off the track), most of the time, they can get themselves back to the paddock- most of the time. I've done crash/ rescue for the SCCA for years, and have first hand knowledge of this. There is no arguing the fact that most of the time, when a bike crashes, there is some assistance required to get them back to the paddock. That equates to missing time on the track with the other groups. While we try out hardest to get the next session started every 20 minutes, rarely with the number of participants and the eventuality of an incident, are we able to always do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radar
Here is a question, if an organization is able to have a track day that limits the number of people on the track, with longer sessions, run until 6pm or a little later, would people be willing to pay the extra money for it? I can tell you if you snooze, you will not get into Bucks events - they sell out very quick - the price is slightly higher per event, but not per track mile - still the best value going IMO - I'm not knocking LSTD - great organization, but as someone else mentioned - it is just nice to know when you are going to be up for your next session. Last track day @ MSR - Houston, we had a very long (and unusual) delay due to a crash - ambulance - helicopter - etc. No one (to my knowledge) complained or was upset about the loss of track time. It goes with the turf at any track day - most of us have been the CAUSE of the stoppage at some point in our track riding lives. I (as probably 50% of the riders) still chose not to ride the last session - I had my fill ( 160 track miles ).
You are one of the people that doesn't complain. Trust me, I am on the "front line" for complainers who whine because someone crashed or had a mechanical, and others are missing track time. Especially ( forbid) that they miss the rest of their session because the ambulance had to transport someone. 99 times of 100, we are able to purchase additional track time past the 5pm "curfew". 100% of the time we are able to purchase an extra hour at the track, we do. I think Ride Smart does this too. People still don't appreciate it, and there are always going to be people that complain. I can say that almost every single time we have bought an extra hour, only about 25% of the people in each group actually participate. A lot of people don't ride their last session or two anyway.

Here is the long and short of things. If people want 2 groups with 30 minute sessions, I know we can provide that- likely, others can too. The drawback is that it will cost much more money. I don't know what arrangement Buck has with the track so that he can rent the track, and I don't really want/ need to know. I know what the costs are for being able to rent a track at Cresson or TWS (Texas World Speedway), and I know for any amount of profit (however minimal), there is a cost threshold that has to be met.

We are working on some different formats for next year, and I think a lot of it is VERY exciting. Hopefully, everything we have on the horizon will come to fruition, and I think next year will be very exciting!

I really enjoy seeing all this feedback here, as we very rarely/ sporadically receive much/ any feedback from our customers.

Good thread Eric!

Radar, thanks for your candid responses, I look forward to more.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:02 AM   #57
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I did read your post. I didn't see a solution on there, only a statement. So, I asked a question- what is your suggestion to change that situation and keep the time running? That's what this thread is for, right? I'd love to hear the suggestion to make it better. I don't pretend to know it all, and if there is a good, safe solution out there that is better than we currently have, I'm all ears.
I did give a suggestion - run it by the clock 20 after/40 after/top of the hour - end of story. Everything else falls where it falls. You could make it up appropriately at the end of the day should you (LSTD) elect to purchase an additional hour. Can't wait to see the changes you have up your sleeve for next year.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:13 AM   #58
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I did give a suggestion - run it by the clock 20 after/40 after/top of the hour - end of story. Everything else falls where it falls. You could make it up appropriately at the end of the day should you (LSTD) elect to purchase an additional hour. Can't wait to see the changes you have up your sleeve for next year.
Well, I guess I mis-interpreted what you were saying then, because that is what we do currently (and have done). We run 20 minute sessions, you can usually "grid-up" 40 minutes after you get done with your session and most of the time are on the track. When we lose an hour of track time, we purchase an additional hour (if they let us).

I guess what I was after is what you suggest as a solution to the issue of running over the 20 minutes due to having to pick up bikes or take care of injured riders on track. That is where the issue lies, not with running 20 minute sessions. If it were a perfect world, I would let everyone go every 20 minutes, and nobody would lose any time. I'm still working on that...

I can't wait to see the changes either, I think it will be very exciting!

Those of you that enjoy the way things are now, don't worry, there will still be the same basic format, but there are additional things on the horizon!
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:40 AM   #59
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OK, stuff is prolly the wrong word... pass on the inside.. how about that?
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:53 AM   #60
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THE PERFECT TRACKDAY

OK Tom - I have it figured out.

1) Trash the PA System
2) Buy several BIG analog clocks
3) Place them strategically throughout the pits
4) Color the "12" Red - When the big hand points to the "Red 12" - A group rides
5) Color the "4" Yellow When the big hand points to the "Yellow 4" - C group rides
6) Color the "8" Blue When the big hand points the the "Blue 8" - B group rides
7) Put a sign up near pit out that says "Complaints" and have Macman :director: manning the booth.

Life would be good! We would all live happily ever after.
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