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Old 09-11-2007, 11:49 PM   #21
andrave
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"presume imminent danger of being harmed???"
ok lol thats not what the law says. you must reasonably believe that you will be harmed, and you may only act with a force necessary to prevent the harm you percieve. Ie, if you are at circuit city, and an employee in a circuit city outfit attempts to prevent you from leaving, then a reasonable person would know that person wasn't attempting to harm you, they are attempting to detain you (whether or not their reasons for wanting to detain you are legal or not) and you are not justified in attacking them.

You can think what you want but trust me if you try it you will go to jail, and if you act with deadly force you will go to trial for manslaughter. thats where you can waive your concealed carry permit handbook around and tell everyone that will listen what you THOUGHT the law was, but no one is going to listen, except your lawyer, who is going to explain to you how wrong you were.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrave View Post
and an employee in a circuit city outfit attempts to prevent you from leaving, then a reasonable person would know that person wasn't attempting to harm you, they are attempting to detain you (whether or not their reasons for wanting to detain you are legal or not) and you are not justified in attacking them.
What are they allowed to do to detain you? Just saying "stop, don't leave" is all they should be allowed to do. No physical contact at all, IMO.

We are talking about checking a customers bag that just left the checkout register, not someone who was observed shoving goods down his pants and trying to make a run for the door.

And even though they may not be trying to harm you, people have died at the hands of over-zealous store employees. One case where the employees decided to sit on the person until cops arrived. He stopped breathing. I don't remember the details, but they might have actually witnessed him stealing something.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrave View Post
"presume imminent danger of being harmed???"
ok lol thats not what the law says. you must reasonably believe that you will be harmed, and you may only act with a force necessary to prevent the harm you percieve. Ie, if you are at circuit city, and an employee in a circuit city outfit attempts to prevent you from leaving, then a reasonable person would know that person wasn't attempting to harm you, they are attempting to detain you (whether or not their reasons for wanting to detain you are legal or not) and you are not justified in attacking them.

You can think what you want but trust me if you try it you will go to jail, and if you act with deadly force you will go to trial for manslaughter. thats where you can waive your concealed carry permit handbook around and tell everyone that will listen what you THOUGHT the law was, but no one is going to listen, except your lawyer, who is going to explain to you how wrong you were.
I believe, in order for a LP/Sec guard to attempt to physicaly(sp?) they have to have reasonable cause to believe a crime is committed... this is akin to a citizens arrest... of which the requirement is that the city, has essentially witnessed a FELONY crime being comitted.

..by this, merely declining to show your reciept does not constitute probable or reasonable cause for the lp/door man to attempt to physicaly detain you. IF said person was to touch or grab you, the possibility would be present for you to claim battery and maybe assault and could provide sufficient reason/cause for you to attempt to defend yourself. This however does not mean that the use of of deadly/lethal force would be justified.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:27 AM   #24
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http://www.crimedoctor.com/loss_prevention_3.htm

"Are Door Bag Searches Legal?
Yes, as long as the inspection is voluntary. No, if the bag check is involuntary or coerced. This is a rather fine legal distinction that is subject to misunderstanding and abuse. Basically, nothing in the law gives the merchant the right to detain a customer for the purpose of searching a shopping bag unless there is a reasonable suspicion of retail theft. See my web page on Shoplifting: Detention & Arrest for more details

A customer can refuse to have their bag checked and simply walk out the door past the bag checker. Hopefully the bag checker has been trained to know that they cannot force anyone to submit to a bag search without cause. This is important because the expectation of the bag checker is that all bag contents have been purchased. The worst thing that could happen is that an aggressive bag checker would forcibly detain or threaten a customer who refused to comply with the voluntary search"
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:37 AM   #25
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big phucking deal....show the recepit.....i think he just needs some attention, or hes just trying to make money....
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:56 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrave View Post
"presume imminent danger of being harmed???"
ok lol thats not what the law says. you must reasonably believe that you will be harmed, and you may only act with a force necessary to prevent the harm you percieve. Ie, if you are at circuit city, and an employee in a circuit city outfit attempts to prevent you from leaving, then a reasonable person would know that person wasn't attempting to harm you, they are attempting to detain you (whether or not their reasons for wanting to detain you are legal or not) and you are not justified in attacking them.

You can think what you want but trust me if you try it you will go to jail, and if you act with deadly force you will go to trial for manslaughter. thats where you can waive your concealed carry permit handbook around and tell everyone that will listen what you THOUGHT the law was, but no one is going to listen, except your lawyer, who is going to explain to you how wrong you were.
dude you are Naive to say the least, I'm not sure what planet you are from, but next time you see me, go ahead and "tackle" me like the afore mentioned store employees did to customers, and we'll see who defends themself.

ps. I never said I would use deadly force, just said "defend myself"
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:05 AM   #27
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you think youre gonna get off scot free claiming self defense when you attack a store security guard who tries to keep you from leaving the store? FYI from an attorney buddy, self defense WONT WORK IN THAT CASE as I've already explained.

lol and you call me naive.

why don't you just stop and try to figure out why he is attempting to detain you? It'd save you some jail time. And they are going to have an awesome security video of you attacking the security guard/employee, which will lead them straight to a quick conviction.
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrave View Post
you think youre gonna get off scot free claiming self defense when you attack a store security guard who tries to keep you from leaving the store? FYI from an attorney buddy, self defense WONT WORK IN THAT CASE as I've already explained.

lol and you call me naive.

why don't you just stop and try to figure out why he is attempting to detain you? It'd save you some jail time. And they are going to have an awesome security video of you attacking the security guard/employee, which will lead them straight to a quick conviction.
I'm done trying to make you understand.

Next time someone tackles you from behind when you are walking to your car, just go ahead and say

"well excuse me sir, I think you may have tackled me, might I inquire why"
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Old 09-12-2007, 02:29 AM   #29
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Old 09-12-2007, 04:53 AM   #30
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in texas IF you have a license/id card you must show it to a fuzz.

and the store can only detain you if they have reasonable doubt that you stole something. checkout ppl, and receipt checkers don't usually have reasonable doubt you stole . its the flash light security that has the doubts. and i agree don't stand for it, fight the man coming down on us. and read your rights. go look at a history book for once. Martin Luther King JR wouldn't stand for this , so why do we? I never give those receipt checking fools the time of day.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:31 AM   #31
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yes the whole thing comes down to does a jury think that it is reasonable to search you. The jury will be told of the store losses and they will see a video of you leaving. So if it looks like you may have taken something to the jury you are toast, in fact if the jury thinks the store could have thought you took something then you are toast.

edit also if the jury thinks that the store was not trying to harm you then you loose on any amount you fight back.

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Old 09-12-2007, 05:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
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yes the whole thing comes down to does a jury think that it is reasonable to search you. The jury will be told of the store losses and they will see a video of you leaving. So if it looks like you may have taken something to the jury you are toast, in fact if the jury thinks the store could have thought you took something then you are toast.

edit also if the jury thinks that the store was not trying to harm you then you loose on any amount you fight back.
yes but a lawyer from crack town can easily have this dismissed before you even get to court. if charges were filed againt you from the store. if your sueing them, a lawyer can still prove they are in the wrong. you can even sue them for defermation of character or however you spell that , for making you look like a theif in public, only if someone ask if you stole something later on. not one of your friends but a citizen. If a store ever did that with me I would strike it rich!
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:35 AM   #33
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find a store that is having high loss from low life scum and walk out without letting them check you. You will have your chance to strike it rich.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:00 AM   #34
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Ha Ha, you lose anyway, time and court cost anyway.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:12 AM   #35
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tackled by the old people at the door who use highlighters , lol...........dam,
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:15 AM   #36
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wow hahha!
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Old 09-12-2007, 08:29 AM   #37
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How about this. Just take your out of the bag. Now you can't be accused of putting anything in there, and roll out. Simple solution.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:09 AM   #38
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when they check your bag, they dont trust you. If they dont trust you, they dont respect you & the guy was right "we fall into their obedience and get scared of authority".
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:38 AM   #39
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IMO One would think that the ACLU would have been all over this long before now were there a chance of winning and lineing their pocketbooks? You know, I can't stop laughing at the thought of that nice little old lady at the SAMS (Meadows) body slamming me in the parking lot...:outfast:
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:44 PM   #40
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Only time i'll stop is at Wal-Mart if I set off the detector thing, cause i've seen people get almost tackled if they dont stop ..

-daniel

I will not ever stop for the detector going off at any store each door person at walmart and LP at any electronic store has a sticker that He/She can set of the alarm themselves for a reason to search you they do it for people that "look suspicious" ( I know ive worked LP at some of these stores) and this is BS that they are allowed to profile and do this to people for no reason at all just because they can
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