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Old 08-27-2007, 01:28 PM   #21
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Personally I find this as trying to do the right thing the wrong way.
+1

Good idea in concept, but not the best avenue to achieve the desired outcome. $.02
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:33 PM   #22
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I have ready eery thing here and don't the time to debate everything.


I'm big on track saftey. IMO for T-days I believe there should be different rules enforced for different classes. If the corner workers see danger flags go up. I'm not saying some of this doesn't already happen. But there is only so much you can do before the experts are going to say "Hey f-off I know how to handle this machine to the limit and if I get hurt, or if the guy Im tangling with bumps bars and things go for the worst. , we asked for it." That how you practice on dirt. I don't mean to affend anyone here. But this is what the classes are for. Accidents happen. We sign a waver before we ride for a reason. Abulances are waitin for a purpose.

As far as wheelies on the track. If you wanna wheelie cause thats what the bike is very capable of doing .....so what..... If you wanna hammer the bike full throttle cause that what the bike is desight to handle.....sooo what.... keep it out the pits and thank were not doing it in traffic going to jail over it. This is why we come to track days. To ride our bikes to the limits and not get introuble for it.


No matter how much talk people try to butter things up about saftey the fact is these bikes wreck hard and people get hurt and every time you push the limit you are risking your life. This is not tennis. I'm sorry cause I might be off a lil but I said I don't have time at the moment to discuss everything.

Last edited by hypertrophyy; 08-27-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:33 PM   #23
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Personally I find this as trying to do the right thing the wrong way.
+1
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:36 PM   #24
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Magnaman, have you been to any trackday with LSTD, LMS or Ridesmart after the incidents that have you written up this petition?
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:49 PM   #25
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Personally I find this as trying to do the right thing the wrong way.
The right way would be me not having to do it at all but rather the organization that I've heralded as the safety leader to step up to the plate and be proactive.

There was "the potential" for a positive outcome (and still is) to this entire thing and that involved the organization taking charge, dismissing an unsafe rider to protect the other riders, reviewing all factors to see what could be learned, and promoting solution(s) going forward. Continuing to position yourself as the safety leader that can evolve for the circumstances is much better than bowing your neck up to the old ways.

Those actions alone would have eliminated much of the aftermath. You had the potential to spin this in a better direction all along.

I addressed this in the private emails and I don't see the need to re-hash it here.

My petition is proposing change. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and have honestly lost sleep over it. As I am sure others have as well. I'm really done discussing this issue.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:06 PM   #26
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Get over yourself............
Everything in your petition if followed would not have kept Patricia from getting hit.
I want as many proactive policies as reactive.
I like the way you have responded to my private messages and phone call.
Another internet know it all in action.
I guess if the sky falls at an LSTD event we should have a policy for that as well. And in the event that someone gets hit by sky I should have to recount my policies, decisions, and future policies. I DONT THINK SO.

Thanks to everyone who has posted with reason and thought.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:11 PM   #27
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you know these trackday ORGS. have it pretty hard when it comes to popularity.you always hear about the guy who wants to move up to a faster group cuz he was fast last time and gets denied only to find out he did not need to be there.i just think that most of these problems can be avoided if trhe rest of the riders "help" keep everyone in their perspective groups...just my $.02
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:26 PM   #28
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I have one more thing to add.... i dont know why pat when down other that someone ran into her. But i can tell people one thing.... It is very frustrating when some body is riding very slow and hogging the whole track.

a rider can be comming behind trying to dart around in side or out side, to get around this person. So they be on and out of the way. But sometimes these slow riders will be on the outside of the track ---put-puting--- and then out of the blue close all the way to the inslide of a 4 car wide track like TWS (Texas World Speedway). Then WHAM!!! the person that was trying to take the inside to get through teebones the person apexing a line they should't be close to at that speed. I have seen it before several times. cause these noob riders don't know how to hold there lines and don't watch for people commin up on them. 2cents.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:35 PM   #29
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The right way would be me not having to do it at all but rather the organization that I've heralded as the safety leader to step up to the plate and be proactive.
Steve, Wade and Jeff have worked very hard on this issue since it happened. What the makes you think they aren't doing anything about it? Why should they have to report this to you anyway? There is no responsibility to report to you what their business is doing, you weren't even at the track day and certainly weren't involved.

I'm not sure what your motivation is for carrying this torch and trying to drag all these issues to the surface again. I certainly can't understand why you think that nothing is being done. I can personally vouch for LSTD and the fact that this issue has been discussed ad infinitum, and that certainly the staff cares for the safety of all the participants.

I see that you cite yourself as some kind of "savior" of us all, and certainly, being an advocate for safety is admirable; however, your forum and approach is completely biased and irrational. You state that "all organizations", but only cite one incident from one organization, and one person's account of the incident. Did you interview the other person or people who witnessed the incident? Have you researched all of the other organizations that provide track days to see how they have handled similar situations?

When I went through Paramedic school 16 years ago, the first thing the instructors told us was, "We'll give you just enough knowledge to be dangerous and kill someone. It's up to you, your mentors, and your practical experience, to learn how not to do that." Meaning that they can give us the basics, but practical application and years of experience will teach us how to be good and have a positive affect on patient care. By this same example, I am reminded by you as a person who has taken some law classes, possibly several, or is some student of the law informally, or possibly wants to be a lawyer or paralegal at one point, but has no experience or practical training/ mentorship to give you the proper skills.

The way you are doing this is a mistake, and it appears you are bored, and/ or have some axe to grind.

We do all we can to keep our track days safe as they possibly can be under the circumstances at the track. Nobody can provide a safety blanket for everyone, and certainly no-one can keep everyone from getting hurt. You just do the best you can, and when presented with unique circumstances, do the best you can at the time and learn from it.

I seriously question your motivation, despite your claims of benevolence. I would support your proposals if it weren't so short-sided and pointed, as I believe that track safety is a paramount concern. I was involved in a track incident, not so different from the one you are citing. It caused me almost the same injuries, time lost at work, and hundreds of dollars in damage to our race bike. Even from "eyewitnesses", nobody could give a consistent account of what happened, and I was the only one that saw that I was hit. Everything happened so fast, I didn't even see who hit me, and my account was sketchy at best, other than the first fact and observing the impact and the circumstances that led to it.

My point is, there are only two people who know what happened on their ends. Those two people are likely to to have two different accounts of the events. The "eyewitness" accounts may not jive either. There may be facts that you and others aren't aware of regarding who may actually be "at fault" for this track incident.

You need to re-think your position and your "mission" here.
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Old 08-27-2007, 02:55 PM   #30
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...I guess if the sky falls at an LSTD event we should have a policy for that as well...
You heard it here folks, LSTD will be handing out free EZ-ups at the next event.



OK, back on topic. Or not..
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:56 PM   #31
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I have been trying to stay out of this thread but some of the things being said seem to be trying to discount has serious the situation was. I am not in any way giving my opinion on this petition one way or another, but do want to clear up a few things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
There is no responsibility to report to you what their business is doing, you weren't even at the track day and certainly weren't involved.
No offense Tom, but as I recall, you were not their either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
I was involved in a track incident, not so different from the one you are citing. It caused me almost the same injuries, time lost at work, and hundreds of dollars in damage to our race bike. Even from "eyewitnesses", nobody could give a consistent account of what happened, and I was the only one that saw that I was hit. Everything happened so fast, I didn't even see who hit me, and my account was sketchy at best, other than the first fact and observing the impact and the circumstances that led to it.
So Tom, was passing in the corners against the rules when your accident happened?

I think I understand where you are trying to go with this, but the fact remains that your accident is quite different. One, your accident was during a race not during a structured track day. Two, even though someone else other than you was at fault and took you out, they were not breaking any rules when it happened. I almost had a close call in my second race ever. A guy in front of me went down and was inch’s from taking me out. In the event that he did, I would be disappointed that I would have to do more prov-nov races or worse yet heal from injuries, but I wouldn’t be mad at the guy because he made a mistake. The other rider on the track in Patricia’s instance was being reckless by knowingly and intentionally breaking the rules(by his own admission) by trying to pass not 1, not 2, but 3 riders at the same time on the inside of a turn. This was witnessed by an LSTD instructor and another rider on the track. Both of their stories were almost exactly the same. Passing in the corners in C group was prohibited and made clear by Ronnie during the riders meeting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypertrophyy View Post
I have one more thing to add.... i dont know why pat when down other that someone ran into her. But i can tell people one thing.... It is very frustrating when some body is riding very slow and hogging the whole track.

a rider can be comming behind trying to dart around in side or out side, to get around this person. So they be on and out of the way. But sometimes these slow riders will be on the outside of the track ---put-puting--- and then out of the blue close all the way to the inslide of a 4 car wide track like TWS (Texas World Speedway). Then WHAM!!! the person that was trying to take the inside to get through teebones the person apexing a line they should't be close to at that speed. I have seen it before several times. cause these noob riders don't know how to hold there lines and don't watch for people commin up on them. 2cents.
Patricia was about the sixth person in line of a slow moving group. She was contemplating running down pit road to get out from behind the slow moving group, but never got the chance.

BTW, if you know what is good for you, you will never call her Pat!
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:20 PM   #32
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I won't sign it, Theres just way to much garbage for my reading on it. I feel that both organizations PREACH about safety, They are not in control of the idiot on the bike. They run very professional organizations it's the people that dont listen to the instructors PREACH about the safety aspect of the sessions that hurt fellow riders, It always takes 2 people to cause an accident 1 the person who initiated it and the one received the accident. The person who caused it should have been listening to the instructors and doing what they were told and it would not have happened. It took me 6 trackdays before I ever moved up to the next level and I didn't even consider doing it till I was confident in myself and my ability to deal with the next level riders. You wont get my signiture, I feel all the organiztions do the best they can in trying to keep a safe enviroment, It's the riders that cause the problems MAINLY BY NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES OR THINKING THERE'S AN AMA SCOUT OUT THERE CHECKING THEM OUT.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:22 PM   #33
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I also want to add that I do not feel that LSTD could have in any way prevented this from happening. Even if they would have noticed that there was a rider breaking the rules, they wouldn't have had enough time to put a stop to it as it was only the third lap of the first session.

I was only dissappointed in the action taken once the incident happened. Hopefully though discussion and policy changes it has been taken care of for future events.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:42 PM   #34
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, I know Patricia didn't deserve what happened, but it's a risk we take when we get out there. We all KNOW it.... I think safety is a huge concern that LSTD continues to improve. Was this not evident in the riders meeting on Friday at Cresson? I think those who were there all know the position these guys take when it comes to safety. After my incident in the FIRST session I was almost scared to ride back into the pits to inform "Macman" of the incident as I didn't want to feel the possible reprocussions of having to sit out or leave the track....but I did what I did, I was ready to face the consequences. Had I been told to leave, I would have. I don't think LSTD, Longhorm, or Ride Smart have a lack of concern for riders safety. They can't control 100% of everything that happens out on the track. I consider myself a "safe" rider and even I proved that "safe" riders can have accidents, even if I was riding too fast for conditions.

Magna,
I'm not sure what your motive is here, but I do have one question. How often do you take your 99 Magna out to the track?? I have participated in 3 TD in the past 3 months and probably spectated at another 4 or 5 of them. I have yet to see someone out on the track rocking there Magna. Why so hostile if you aren't heavily involved in TD to begin with? Why are you the "savior" to the rest of us? I think all of this is just going to make getting on the track more difficult and hurt those of us who love to ride the track even more. Just my 2 cents....and if you are heavily involved in trackdays and I have missed ya, my apologies.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:54 PM   #35
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Hopefully though discussion and policy changes it has been taken care of for future events.
It has. Zero tolerance for breaking the rules.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:01 PM   #37
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I think those who were there all know the position these guys take when it comes to safety. After my incident in the FIRST session I was almost scared to ride back into the pits to inform "Macman" of the incident as I didn't want to feel the possible reprocussions of having to sit out or leave the track....but I did what I did, I was ready to face the consequences. Had I been told to leave, I would have. I don't think LSTD, Longhorm, or Ride Smart have a lack of concern for riders safety. They can't control 100% of everything that happens out on the track. I consider myself a "safe" rider and even I proved that "safe" riders can have accidents, even if I was riding too fast for conditions.
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Yep, horseplay no more. If you can't follow the rules, you will be asked to leave or escorted or thown out.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:32 PM   #38
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No offense Tom, but as I recall, you were not their either.
No offense to you either Gavin, but don't turn this in to an argument between you and me- I think you and Patricia know where I stand on this subject- if you don't then I would be happy to reiterate it for you off-line. There weren't many more people who were as concerned as I was when I heard about what happened.
My point about him not being there was not because I was saying I WAS there, and nowhere do you see or hear me talking about fault or responsibility of who caused the accident. I've heard many stories on the subject, some of which were not flattering or innocent to either party. That is not the point I am trying to make, and I'm not trying to pass judgment either. Jesse, as my point was intended, and I think pretty clear, in my opinion, is trying to pass judgment, is trying to state facts without basis on interviews or by being there. He consistently brings this subject up, where he has no responsibility or business, and sounds like he's antagonizing and pot-stirring. My point is, there are two people, who know the facts as they remember them and exactly what they were doing- even that information could be and likely is "incomplete" as things happen so fast. Even people who were "eyewitnesses" couldn't have seen it all. Heck, I was in a pack of at least 20 people when I got hit, and only one person vaguely saw what happened. Not to mention that we were all going in a straight line when imine happened, not trying to negotiate a tight turn where most people's eyes should have been looking ahead of themselves, not at the person in front of them. This isn't the first time I threw a bike down, and it's not the first time for me that someone else was involved. I'm not new to this.

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I think I understand where you are trying to go with this, but the fact remains that your accident is quite different. One, your accident was during a race not during a structured track day. Two, even though someone else other than you was at fault and took you out, they were not breaking any rules when it happened.
I beg to differ. He did break the rules when he made an erratic move directly in front of me to avoid a water puddle. He was warned (as we all were) that this was a "wet" race, and that there were several puddles on the track, and even where they were. Not only did he "break the rules" by making that erratic move, he also broke the rules by not showing up to the rider's meeting, and by being a prov-nov in an endurance race (if it is the person that my eyewitnesses and I am pretty sure it was).

Quote:
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The other rider on the track in Patricia’s instance was being reckless by knowingly and intentionally breaking the rules(by his own admission) by trying to pass not 1, not 2, but 3 riders at the same time on the inside of a turn.
He admitted to being reckless and knowingly/ intentionally breaking the rules?

He may have admitted making a few passes- I don't know, I wasn't there- but I didn't know he admitted to be reckless and knowingly/ intentionally breaking the rules...

As I mentioned in previous threads, if some of the stories are true, then the guy was an idiot for breaking the rules, and I would hope that he wasn't intentionally being dangerous and trying to hurt someone. I would be shocked if he did. Judging by his reaction, I seriously doubt that was the case, but nothing is impossible I guess.

Quote:
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I also want to add that I do not feel that LSTD could have in any way prevented this from happening. Even if they would have noticed that there was a rider breaking the rules, they wouldn't have had enough time to put a stop to it as it was only the third lap of the first session.

I was only dissappointed in the action taken once the incident happened. Hopefully though discussion and policy changes it has been taken care of for future events.
Today 04:20 PM
A good way to approach this on yall's end. As I understand things, and judging by the comments you both have made before, it's how you both have handled this the whole time. I say "good on ya" for that.

My comments are directed to Jesse, who just can't seem to understand that this is not about him, or feels like there is a big injustice that he needs to take care of, or whatever his motivation is.

I don't know what your correspondence with LSTD has been regarding this, and it's the way it should be. It's between Patricia, and them. No policy changes may occur, and some things have already been changed. We learn from unexpected incidents like any other human being does.

Jesse has made concentrated accusations and libelous comments on public message boards in my opinion, almost to the point of the appearance of trying to cause financial damage or incite frivolous legal action to LSTD or something. This distresses me as nothing good could possibly come of that. I don't want to come to a point where silly things (referring to Jesse's public actions) like this either make an organization dissolve, drive prices up to exclusive ranges, or make track days where prices are ridiculous and have a limit of 20 riders or something (not a slam on Buck, he has his numbers there for good reasons and it works well).

"Trial by internet" is simply silly, and potentially damaging. There is always a better way of doing things, and this is not it. I don't care who this is about, it's NEVER a good idea. Just like the public trials on evening news, our ADD populace lives in a world where mis-information and gossip rules almost every situation.

So, Gavin, in closing, I think Patricia has handled this whole thing like a champ, and as far as I know, she is satisfied as she possibly can be with LSTD. I hope that my suspicions are correct on that. I think that this was a very unfortunate incident, and just like so many, I don't like to see things like this happen to anyone, especially someone I like.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:57 PM   #39
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so do yall think having people on a track with at least some sort of written proof they are somewhat capable is not a good idea?

i agree magna bings up a good point, but in a bad way. looks like alot of blame is being laid on the TD organizer and not the person.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:02 PM   #40
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