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Old 08-26-2007, 11:44 AM   #1
MagnaMan
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Track Day Safety Measures

Due to recent events, several emails I've exchanged with the track day organization, my discussions with eye witnessnesses, and my own track day experience, I've proposed 4 safety measures for track day programs to consider.

I've believe they are simple and easy to enforce but will go along way to keeping track days safe learning and recreation environments. I ask that you sign it if you agree but don't come back here and start a flame war if you disagree. Negative discussions regarding forum sponsors tend to get threads locked and I'd like this to stay near the top so people can consider it.

I will post the link here and on Two Wheeled Texans. Please feel free to post this on other forums:


Thanks.
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Last edited by Solracer; 08-28-2007 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:33 PM   #2
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Please hold off while I readjust some of the verbiage. My intention is to promote safety and not get in battle about the account of the events. It appears this has already started.

Kind regards.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:49 PM   #3
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sounds like a great idea to allow only those with MSF or M endoresment or race license to ride.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:17 AM   #4
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Nice write up, LMS will do what we can........
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:19 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arturo3rd View Post
sounds like a great idea to allow only those with MSF or M endoresment or race license to ride.
I would agree....I think an M class or MSF should be minimum requirements.
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Old 08-27-2007, 09:43 AM   #6
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SIGNED!!
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:37 AM   #7
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I'm happy with the content unhappy with the way Magna man refers to an incident which he knows and listened to one side or the versions that he chooses to discuss. The rider who hit her went back to his pits due to the red flag he caused. The only part of the track he re-entered was enough to get him into the pits. At his pit he was approached by the LSTD staff. He was interviewed and allowed to move up a group under supervision of our staff. This decision made by my company was obviously not popular on this message board. No-one in this disscusion was there with Wade when he talked to the rider. Not even me...........
Your accounts of this incident act as if we are negligent, irresponsible, and have a lack of regard for safety, and a general disrespect for the rider who got hit. We made a decision and it was unpopular. If the same rider later in the day caused an incident or continued to break any rules he would have been ejected and there could be negligence. Nothing else happended. These types of incidents can happen on the track. Bikes break, riders screw up, riders hit riders, it rains, Oil leaks, bikes leak fluids and all the other reason track accidents can occur. It is still much safer that riding on the street and we will continue to make every event as safe as possible. I feel that there are going to be many riders with the exception to the CMRA Racing license holders that possess the State MSF, or motorcycle endorsement and they have no business being at a track day. Do you know the credentials of the rider who hit Patricia? We do.
I feel that you have mis-represented facts.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:43 AM   #8
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IMO, if you want to have some sort of petition to increase safety at a track day, that's fine, but IMO, there is no need to have an incident description on the petition.

PS- Target fixation is easy in theory, but I have seen countless professional racers fall due to target fixation...
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhdrider View Post
IMO, if you want to have some sort of petition to increase safety at a track day, that's fine, but IMO, there is no need to have an incident description on the petition.

PS- Target fixation is easy in theory, but I have seen countless professional racers fall due to target fixation...
+1
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:59 AM   #10
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I think its messed up that the track is the reason I will get my M endorsement not just everyday riding......lol
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:29 AM   #11
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+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigy View Post
I think its messed up that the track is the reason I will get my M endorsement not just everyday riding......lol
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:08 PM   #12
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GL on this mission. I guess the next thing on your list is race fairing and safety wires, since we don't want anything to vibrate itself loose, especially street bikes.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:23 PM   #13
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Any time a rule/measure is proposed you need to establish the background for why it originated.

I take this issue very seriously. I do not believe I have misrepresented the facts. I read everything in great detail when writing the synopsis. I can cross-reference specific posts from LSTD staff and specific references to those posts in personal emails I exchanged with LSTD to show the synopsis I wrote. My effort to be brief was not an effort to leave anything out, either.

The one thing I did not want to do was merely point everyone back to the original threads on the Internet. I wanted to avoid re-hashing all the emotions and graphic pics. I also made no mention of a specific organization because the issues affect all of them.

When the synopsis immediately came under fire, I asked LSTD to provide their official synopsis and I would use that. I never received it. I also contacted the petition webmaster and asked them to pull it until it can be described amicably. Since they appear to be too slow for my taste, I will ask Chris or one of the other moderators to remove the link.

I have always promoted LSTD as a safety driven organization (see below). I contacted them and asked what new measures would be in effect and I was not satisfied with the answer. I am surprised that I am having to lead the effort to learn from this event.
http://www.twtex.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=10
http://www.twtex.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=14
http://www.magnaownersoftexas.org/fo...opic.php?t=865

I realize people may be viewing me harshly because I am trying to get all track organizations to learn from this incident, but we only have to look to Florida right now to see an example (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/loc...tory?track=rss). The recent para sailing accident that killed a teenager is now driving the push for legislation and governmental regulations. And for a local, personal example, I worked on the A&M Bonfire for about five years. I was there when it slumped over in 94. At that time there was little talk about reviewing the safety and construction. We all know what happened just a few years later.

I am trying to be proactive and say there is something to learn from this event before someone dies or perhaps track days are regulated out of existence.

In the end, track days are still schools, not races. And there is a certain amount of safety that needs to be present in a learning environment. I do not wish to argue the details of the incident and I will write no synopsis in the next version of the petition. The petition's purpose is show cause for safety measures and then propose them.

Chris, please remove the web link to the petition.

Regards.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:28 PM   #14
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Very strange, to avoid sounding rude or arrogant I will try to word this politely but, I think you are lacking credentials, experience and appropriate reasoning to be petitioning private businesses in the whole state of Texas to change their business practices.

Furthermore, the organizations you have targeted are the people who have been working towards safe conditions for sport bike riders for close to a decade and your proposals seems a little off base when you consider they have worked at this for so long.

Lets review some of your proposals.

1. Track programs should reserve the right to deal with incidents based upon their severity. For example: causing a wreck is worse than riding a wheelie. They do not have to be treated the same.

To me it seems you have stated the obvious about the right of any private business. Second, you have demonstrated a lack of perspective. To my knowledge a wheelie at the track is only an incident if you do it through the pits.

2. If a rider causes a wreck with a collision, especially one that sends someone to a hospital or puts them out for the day, then that rider is out for the day as well. Build in responsibility and accountability because we can't count on the track organization to do it.

I think this statement has some merit but, again it is a judgment call and the right of the business owner to make the decisions. Your statement “because we can’t count on the track organization to do it” seems rude and defamatory from my perspective.

3. To participate in a track day you must have ONE of the following:
a) A state Motorcycle endorsement OR
b) MSF Basic Rider's Course Completion card OR
c) A CMRA (or equivalent racing) license

This statement again shows a lack of credentials. All of these sound great but what about the young kid who is underage to legally hold a motorcycle endorsement? Second, the MSF is a double edged sword when used in conjunction with proper track etiquette and lastly you have to attend a track day to get licensed by the CMRA.

4. Unless you have a racing license, all first time track day participants should be required to take that program's school for the appropriate level. This is to ensure that everyone on the track has some basic level of orientation and skill.

This one is the closest on par to what I would agree with but, again I think it is lacking insight. I certainly agree there should be some required schooling and / or additional qualification guidelines before being allowed on the track or being allowed to sign up for a faster group.


I hope this helps in some way. I am not trying to be cynical but, I do think this petition should be revised. All of this is coming from a person who knows the suffering involved with being hospitalized at the track due to another riders error and my incident occurred while only licensed racers where on the track. Stupidity can be a hard thing to prevent.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaMan View Post


I am trying to get all track organizations to learn from this incident,

Regards.
I think that they have heard all the comments, learned from the past and I am sure that they will do everything to make a safe trackday for everyone.
Your petition is a nice gestured but not neccessary, IMO.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
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. Stupidity can be a hard thing to prevent.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:48 PM   #17
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I acknowledge that the proposed measures may not be perfect that's why I said (some form thereof.) Moody, I acknowledge your points. And while I can expand on some and disagree on others (citing specific posts) I have to point out that I attempted to discuss these points near the end of the original accident thread but it was locked as "drama". I would have appreciated other people's insight. One of the main benefits of forums is to draw upon the expertise pool. We didn't get that chance here, so I had to go it alone and write several emails before deciding I had to appeal to a broader base.
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Old 08-27-2007, 12:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaMan View Post
I acknowledge that the proposed measures may not be perfect that's why I said (some form thereof.) Moody, I acknowledge your points. And while I can expand on some and disagree on others (citing specific posts) I have to point out that I attempted to discuss these points near the end of the original accident thread but it was locked as "drama". I would have appreciated other people's insight. One of the main benefits of forums is to draw upon the expertise pool. We didn't get that chance here, so I had to go it alone and write several emails before deciding I had to appeal to a broader base.
I hope my comments help. I think number 4 is your strongest point and with some additional work could be a legitimate request.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:23 PM   #19
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Personally I find this as trying to do the right thing the wrong way.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
Very strange, to avoid sounding rude or arrogant I will try to word this politely but, I think you are lacking credentials, experience and appropriate reasoning to be petitioning private businesses in the whole state of Texas to change their business practices.

Furthermore, the organizations you have targeted are the people who have been working towards safe conditions for sport bike riders for close to a decade and your proposals seems a little off base when you consider they have worked at this for so long.
The old adage of "this is the way we've always done it", doesn't always work. As motorcycling popularity increases so will the number of track days and various riders of various skill levels. Eventually the odds of accidents will increase. Research the Florida parasailing incident for an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
Lets review some of your proposals.

1. Track programs should reserve the right to deal with incidents based upon their severity. For example: causing a wreck is worse than riding a wheelie. They do not have to be treated the same.

To me it seems you have stated the obvious about the right of any private business. Second, you have demonstrated a lack of perspective. To my knowledge a wheelie at the track is only an incident if you do it through the pits.
See Wayne's second paragraph here: http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=82

Here he state's that he remained consistent with the policy. But it did not allow for the severity of the infraction. There's a reason why we have misdemeanors and felonies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
2. If a rider causes a wreck with a collision, especially one that sends someone to a hospital or puts them out for the day, then that rider is out for the day as well. Build in responsibility and accountability because we can't count on the track organization to do it.

I think this statement has some merit but, again it is a judgment call and the right of the business owner to make the decisions. Your statement “because we can’t count on the track organization to do it” seems rude and defamatory from my perspective.
This measure is also to protect the business owner. I discussed this in great detail in the accident thread.

And yes, the last statement shows some frustration. It was the result of several hours of emails and attempted reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post

3. To participate in a track day you must have ONE of the following:
a) A state Motorcycle endorsement OR
b) MSF Basic Rider's Course Completion card OR
c) A CMRA (or equivalent racing) license

This statement again shows a lack of credentials. All of these sound great but what about the young kid who is underage to legally hold a motorcycle endorsement? Second, the MSF is a double edged sword when used in conjunction with proper track etiquette and lastly you have to attend a track day to get licensed by the CMRA.
Maybe the underage kid will just have to wait. MSF teaches basic cornering skills, safety, and a respect for fellow riders. Anyone who's been to a track day and met people on the track without an M endorsement or MSF know what kind of riders they are. And your statement about the CMRA only proves my point. If you have the license, then you have attended a number of track days before and are a serious rider.

Again, these qualifications are not perfect but they are easily checked and this measure is quickly implemented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
4. Unless you have a racing license, all first time track day participants should be required to take that program's school for the appropriate level. This is to ensure that everyone on the track has some basic level of orientation and skill.

This one is the closest on par to what I would agree with but, again I think it is lacking insight. I certainly agree there should be some required schooling and / or additional qualification guidelines before being allowed on the track or being allowed to sign up for a faster group.
Lacking what insight? This rule allows for track programs to establish a common base within their existing structure without big changes. Your first time with us? You take the class. We've got you covered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
Stupidity can be a hard thing to prevent.
Yes. But you can minimize risk.

That's all I'm going to discuss these measures now. I've invested a lot of time in this entire endeavor. When/if I post another petition people can read this and sign if they want, and not if they don't.
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