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Old 08-01-2007, 12:53 PM   #41
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There are many resons for the tire to spin. I try to look at each person's needs induvidually. What works for one person doesn't always work for everyone.
All racetires are affected by heat cycles. It is the nature of the beast. Tirewarmers help tremendously, and with ambient temps approaching 100 deg F the tires do not tend to cycle as much.
FYI A heat cycle is typically considered when the tire temp drops below 130 deg F. Obviously it hs to be hotter than that in the first place, but that is what a heat cycle is considered to be. Those are core temps not surface temps.

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Old 08-01-2007, 01:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
ANY tire can lose traction / spin up exiting a corner.
Typically it's because you're getting on the gas too soon / too hard.
Several other factors can come into play though; body position, suspension set up, and tire pressure.
I was debating with a friend of mine about tire slippage. His theory is that tires are not to slip coming in or out of corners, if it is then it needs replacing. Motorcycle don't or can't drift like cars and shouldn't be.

So, how does anyone know when to replace the tires, when the side indicator is worn down? Should slippage would be the sign for replacement?


If only I could drift the bikes around corner then I don't have to worry about any of this debating.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypertrophyy View Post
If I were to use a 190/55 on a 600, would that defeat the purpose of the more controlable handling? Woudn't a 190/50 be more predictable?

On my R1, I love that 190/50. I can slam that thing into corners as hard as want (Not as fast as a 180..but its smooth and predictable).
Sounds like you already know the answer to me

Stick with what you like, any changes you make I would make in small increments with support (suspension tuner). I know some guys that are very good tuners in the own regard, but took many years of learning to get there. IMHO, it's much easier to pay a tuner to do it for me and get their support throughout the day. Two of my team mates are EXCELLENT tuners, so our endurance bike is tuned by them. My personal bike is tuned by Motorcycles Unlimited (specifically Brandon, that "Patrick" guy scares me... :icon_bigg)

I have some Dunlops on my GSXR right now, they worked well at TWS (Texas World Speedway). The GSXR 750 I have ridden for the past year or so has Pirellis, and they work very well- the only issue I had with them was when they got worn and that they seem to be really touchy when it comes to tire pressure changes (I mean 1 or 2 pounds up or down makes huge changes on this bike- I don't know if that's tires or just the bike though).

I'm putting some 002s on for Cresson, it'll be my first time on them. I expect great things based on all the guys that race 'em. I KNOW they'll exceed my riding potential!
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:35 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypertrophyy View Post
Pat/Tom... thankyou for your in depth feedback.

Most of my question's have been answered but at the same time its funny cause other guys here are comming up with some good ones too.

I have always used a 180 on the back of my 600's but a 190/50 on my 1000's. So "PAIN" says he uses a 190 on his 600 and I probably know why already. The 180's turn on a dime.....fast....very fast. A 190 (though slower turn in speed) should be easier to control and have a bigger contact patch. If I were to use a 190/55 on a 600, would that defeat the purpose of the more controlable handling? Woudn't a 190/50 be more predictable?

On my R1, I love that 190/50. I can slam that thing into corners as hard as want (Not as fast as a 180..but its smooth and predictable). I haven't takin it to a track. On the street, if I know the corners, I'm almost fearless . I will come outta the corners and dirt-track that sucker.

In a way many of my questions have been answered but now I feel like more have just popped up, lol. Looks like I have aloooot of testing to do.

(My wrecks are 95% losing the front end in corners). Actually, I have only lost the back once. It was in the wet in turn 6 at TWS (Texas World Speedway). I know it will happen again.....hopefully not soon.
i was suggested by brandon at Motorcycles Unlimited to go with the 190/55's. also a few other people i know run 190/55's, and they say they work great.

i'm not what you would call, smooooth on the throttle.....so that little extra patch of rubber is my way of cheating :icon_bigg

but try em out, i've run 180's and 190's both on the 600.....for an extra $10-$20, i'll take that extra bit of rubber.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:44 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level5 View Post
I was debating with a friend of mine about tire slippage. His theory is that tires are not to slip coming in or out of corners, if it is then it needs replacing. Motorcycle don't or can't drift like cars and shouldn't be.

So, how does anyone know when to replace the tires, when the side indicator is worn down? Should slippage would be the sign for replacement?


If only I could drift the bikes around corner then I don't have to worry about any of this debating.
I know you're directing this to John and Patrick, but in my perspective, I have little things in each track that are good indicators of how the tires are performing.

At TWS (Texas World Speedway), turn 3 (the first right hander) is one of them. With so many high speed lefts, the tires on the left side don't get as much wear, but are a bit cooler (this is my theory). When it starts to slide and spin up there, I use that to determine that the tire is going away. I'm usually right... but then some people can ride tires to the tread is gone and the cords are showing, running faster lap times than I do!
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:52 PM   #46
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[QUOTE=houseofpain;689951]
i'm not what you would call, smooooth on the throttle.....so that little extra patch of rubber is my way of cheating :icon_bigg

[QUOTE]


:laughing6: I know what you mean.... I have had tooo many nasty saves. Great Tip!

Does it slow you down on tracks i.e. Oak Hill? Or turns where it gets real tight?

Last edited by hypertrophyy; 08-01-2007 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:56 PM   #47
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[QUOTE=hypertrophyy;689985]
Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofpain View Post
i'm not what you would call, smooooth on the throttle.....so that little extra patch of rubber is my way of cheating :icon_bigg

QUOTE]


:laughing6: I know what you mean.... I have had tooo many nasty saves. Great Tip!

Does it slow you down on tracks i.e. Oak Hill? Or turns where it gets real tight?
Theoretically, it should slow your turns down, which would be a detriment at the Hill. That being said, it all depends on your setup. You can get a bike to turn just as good with a wider tire as the narrower tire with the correct setup.

It's all a matter of what works for you!
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Old 08-01-2007, 02:01 PM   #48
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:laughing6:laughing6 I need a track in my backyard...... I'm about to break out the cones and parking-lot

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Old 08-01-2007, 02:10 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level5 View Post
I was debating with a friend of mine about tire slippage. His theory is that tires are not to slip coming in or out of corners, if it is then it needs replacing. Motorcycle don't or can't drift like cars and shouldn't be.

So, how does anyone know when to replace the tires, when the side indicator is worn down? Should slippage would be the sign for replacement?


If only I could drift the bikes around corner then I don't have to worry about any of this debating.
If your bike is not drifting then your not trying hard enough.

IMHO the best tires out there slip all the time. It does not necessarily mean they are worn out. It means they lost traction.... I think Patrick already explained this.
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Old 08-01-2007, 02:14 PM   #50
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I agree....to a point and I think most racers will too. If your not pushing for a slide, your not riding hard enough. That's whats separates the majors from the minors.
That's what will get you hurt fast too.
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:56 PM   #51
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how much is the 002 set for 600? I am gonna get take offs and use them for practice and then get the 002 for my prov nov sprints... just to try them out..
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Old 08-01-2007, 03:59 PM   #52
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[QUOTE=tomLSTD;689997]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypertrophyy View Post

Theoretically, it should slow your turns down, which would be a detriment at the Hill. That being said, it all depends on your setup. You can get a bike to turn just as good with a wider tire as the narrower tire with the correct setup.

It's all a matter of what works for you!
Actually unless you change your setup it will quicken the steering. The 190/55 tire is taller, so it raises the rear ride height, decreases the rake angle, and shortens the trail. Because the tire is pretty tall, it's very rounded, much more so than a 190/50, and as such it turns in easier.

Hutch recommended we go with the 190/55 on our 600 at the end of last season, and we've been very pleased with the results.
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post
I know you're directing this to John and Patrick, but in my perspective, I have little things in each track that are good indicators of how the tires are performing.

At TWS (Texas World Speedway), turn 3 (the first right hander) is one of them. With so many high speed lefts, the tires on the left side don't get as much wear, but are a bit cooler (this is my theory). When it starts to slide and spin up there, I use that to determine that the tire is going away. I'm usually right... but then some people can ride tires to the tread is gone and the cords are showing, running faster lap times than I do!
Thanks for your input, everyone's experiences and insight is appreciated. We are new to this and have so much to learn.
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemiKaze View Post
how much is the 002 set for 600? I am gonna get take offs and use them for practice and then get the 002 for my prov nov sprints... just to try them out..
i'm gonna have to warn you, once you try them out, you might not go back to whatever your currently using.

bt002's i believe are in the ballpark of $310-$340+tax (depending on size, but don't take my word for it). pm kawi jm for more info.
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:53 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by level5 View Post
I was debating with a friend of mine about tire slippage. His theory is that tires are not to slip coming in or out of corners, if it is then it needs replacing. Motorcycle don't or can't drift like cars and shouldn't be.

So, how does anyone know when to replace the tires, when the side indicator is worn down? Should slippage would be the sign for replacement?


If only I could drift the bikes around corner then I don't have to worry about any of this debating.
I go by "feel" to replace my tires. Ive ridden tires down to the cord before and my lap times remained the same and I didn't even notice till I inspected my tire. I don't usually do that but it just so happened that I must of slid the tire in some corners and the little bit that was left ripped of and left me with cord.

usually as they wear and go through cycles, you can run your hand through them and feel the compound changing. it will start getting stiffer.

and sliding the tires is the fun part! Here's a video you can show your friend about sliding: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/138420/moto_gp_animals/
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Old 08-01-2007, 04:53 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=Patrick;690266]
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Originally Posted by tomLSTD View Post

Actually unless you change your setup it will quicken the steering. The 190/55 tire is taller, so it raises the rear ride height, decreases the rake angle, and shortens the trail. Because the tire is pretty tall, it's very rounded, much more so than a 190/50, and as such it turns in easier.

Hutch recommended we go with the 190/55 on our 600 at the end of last season, and we've been very pleased with the results.

See, I have been contemplating this for the last few years. Without being on the track to test or being involved with racers like this..... I would never know.

The more I thought about it, it made more since for 1000's or bikes with big HP.

In the end, I always came back to the theroery. With 600's being underpowered, the 180 would be sufficient to the power.

Do to my size and weight. 6'1 210-235....... I always wanted an advantage to help me over the 5'9 150-175 guy with the same skill.... My hobbies kill me in the fact that they all conflict with each other and my genetics.

So that is why I always had the idea of running a 190/55 for my bigger size. I can be totally wrong but I kinda figured a bigger contact patch would help for a bigger for a guy going the same speed as a dude 1/5 smaller than me.


Anyway, I could remember a few years ago when u Pat would steer us away from the 190's. This new info is encouraging. As the sport is always evolving and speeding up. Good stuff!
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:10 PM   #57
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Yep, a few years ago there weren't really any choices for a 190 / 55 series tire, only a 50 series. For most riders on 600's, the 180 worked better than the 190 / 50 profile.
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Old 08-01-2007, 05:39 PM   #58
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190/55's FTW!!!
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Old 08-01-2007, 08:16 PM   #59
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getting some good info
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Old 08-01-2007, 08:22 PM   #60
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Kawi is absolutely correct about the heat cycles and thanks for pointing it out. I was actually making that point for track day guys and not actually racers. Heat cycles and the age of the tire can affect someone who may only ride the occasional track day and then put their street tires on again which subjects them to multiple heat cycles while the tire ages. I wanted the track day guys to understand that a one year old race tire that only has ten light sessions on it and plenty of tread will not have the grip it did when it was new. I have a two year old set of rains that are considerably harder than they were new and have never seen a track yet.
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