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Old 07-25-2007, 12:17 PM   #161
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If it were me, I'd be suing this guy's . The whole "it's the track, happens" attitude was an eyeopener for me and is one of the reasons that I won't be riding on the track anytime soon. Screw this. People need to be held accountable for their actions. Chaotic free-for-all with no consequences doesn't equate "safer" to me.

So maybe more rules and mandatory liability insurance would ruin it for everyone? Maybe an institution like this *should* be ruined.

I think there would need to be more research done first. Seriously, from what we've heard for the most part... this was a very rare occurence/sequence of events that took place.
It wasn't a reg, it was a fresh newb on their 1st track day. I'm pretty sure his backside was pretty raw from the instructors, and that things have been changed in the event of this happening again.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:55 PM   #162
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Accidents are things that happen outside of our control. A throttle cable breaking, a tire going flat because of a nail puncture, a tree falling in front of you, etc and are generally considered acts of .

Mistakes are things that happen out of poor judgment or lack of due diligence. Mistakes are acts of man. IMO most automobile accidents are mistakes... Jenny was talking on her cell phone, Bobby's cigarette fell between his legs, Joe was drunk, I was going too fast for the conditions, etc.

People are often held accountable for mistakes because THEY ARE AT FAULT. This guy showed extremely poor judgment and should be held accountable for it on some level. This could include an apology, a public flogging, getting kicked off the track, having to mow Patricia's yard (if she had one), or something else.

Everyone is acting like this is a race situation. This is the SLOW group of a track day where grams and gramps get to stretch the legs on their Ninja 250's and V-Stroms without being blown off the road! We all talk about "take it to a track day" and then this kind of happens in this group. This is a RIDERS SCHOOL not a RACE SCHOOL and the RULES are there for a reason.

I am sure that LSTD will get some good guidelines worked up for this type of situation. It just me off to see a friend laid up for who knows how long while this asshat cries a few tears and then spends the rest of the day having fun. A drunk that hits a tree is not in near as much as a drunk that hurts someone else. Both are lapses in judgment but the consequences are quite different.

Great post,
I hate to see anyone get taken out at a trackday but to have the responsible party not take credit for their part is just wrong.
But just like in life, there are people standing next to you that will you over in an instant. Keep your whits about you, expecially at the track or on group rides or anytime you surround yourself with others that you wouldn't trust alone with your wife/husband.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:58 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
I think there would need to be more research done first. Seriously, from what we've heard for the most part... this was a very rare occurence/sequence of events that took place.
It wasn't a reg, it was a fresh newb on their 1st track day. I'm pretty sure his backside was pretty raw from the instructors, and that things have been changed in the event of this happening again.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:26 PM   #164
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If it were me, I'd be suing this guy's . The whole "it's the track, happens" attitude was an eyeopener for me and is one of the reasons that I won't be riding on the track anytime soon. Screw this. People need to be held accountable for their actions. Chaotic free-for-all with no consequences doesn't equate "safer" to me.

So maybe more rules and mandatory liability insurance would ruin it for everyone? Maybe an institution like this *should* be ruined.
Not trying to sound like an here, but if that's how you feel, then I hope you don't come to a track day. Sometimes in life there cannot always be a fair outcome. That's life. We all here have to deal w/ that fact. If you always try to make it fair w/ lawsuits and closing down events like this everyone suffers. $.02
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:36 PM   #165
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If it were me, I'd be suing this guy's . The whole "it's the track, happens" attitude was an eyeopener for me and is one of the reasons that I won't be riding on the track anytime soon. Screw this. People need to be held accountable for their actions. Chaotic free-for-all with no consequences doesn't equate "safer" to me.

So maybe more rules and mandatory liability insurance would ruin it for everyone? Maybe an institution like this *should* be ruined.
Blood from a rock?
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:41 PM   #166
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All I have to say is if you crash me please say your sorry. I certainly will try to do the same if I am conscious. I have had plenty of incidents over the years where plenty of people chose not to do this and it aches me to think that some of them started on the same grid as me. I employ myself to even stop by and say, "Hey I know I slid that one in there close. Hope it did not rattle you to much." Most of us are hobbyist and I would like to continue chasing dreams with my hobbies.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:45 PM   #167
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All I have to say is if you crash me please say your sorry. I certainly will try to do the same if I am conscious. I have had plenty of incidents over the years where plenty of people chose not to do this and it aches me to think that some of them started on the same grid as me. I employ myself to even stop by and say, "Hey I know I slid that one in there close. Hope it did not rattle you to much." Most of us are hobbyist and I would like to continue chasing dreams with my hobbies.
I told you that I'm sorry didn't I? :eh:
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:47 PM   #168
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I told you that I'm sorry didn't I? :eh:


Yeah I think we both appologized to each other and tried to help each other out afterwards.... funny how the other guy had not shown up to offer an appology or a hand loading things. :eh:
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:49 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moody View Post
All I have to say is if you crash me please say your sorry. I certainly will try to do the same if I am conscious. I have had plenty of incidents over the years where plenty of people chose not to do this and it aches me to think that some of them started on the same grid as me. I employ myself to even stop by and say, "Hey I know I slid that one in there close. Hope it did not rattle you to much." Most of us are hobbyist and I would like to continue chasing dreams with my hobbies.
well put. it's common courtesy/respect. if i cut someone or get cut a little too close, or even bump someone through a turn or straightaway.....i expect a hand in the air or some gesture of apology. even if it was a race, i'd still throw a gesture of apology or come find them in the pits and apologize. it's a shame some people think it's okay to not say a thing when something bad happens.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:49 PM   #170
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funny how the other guy had not shown up to offer an appology or a hand loading things. :eh:


I'd really like to see the video though.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:51 PM   #171
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This thread sucs, I hope some one locks it down.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:51 PM   #172
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I'd really like to see the video though.
+1, I would like to have it for my collection. :icon_bigg
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:52 PM   #173
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....i'm having withdrawals talking about all this track stuff.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:53 PM   #174
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....i'm having withdrawals talking about all this track stuff.
+1
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:54 PM   #175
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I think there would need to be more research done first. Seriously, from what we've heard for the most part... this was a very rare occurence/sequence of events that took place.
It wasn't a reg, it was a fresh newb on their 1st track day. I'm pretty sure his backside was pretty raw from the instructors, and that things have been changed in the event of this happening again.
Bah. More research? I was just talking to Patricia about how this whole thing is like deja vu to me.

Back in 2004, 2 people, a friend of mine plus the wife of the trackday organizer, were stuffed off the track when someone broke the rules of the session by passing on the inside. Their bikes were totaled, both with collarbones broken, and the trackday organizers wife with her leg broken in 2 places. The culprit rode on and never identified himself. We had this same liability conversation 2 years ago with roughly the same conclusion.

Maybe the unwritten " happens" rule worked back when the community was smaller and people had some honor. These days, little can cause major injury and property damage through gross negligence and walk away with a "sore bottom" or feel fine never coming forward at all. Bullshit.

As for the track being safer? Whatever. Another friend at another trackday managed to crash himself off the track, sliding into a position with a low rise (hill) between him and the cornerworker. He roasted out there, seriously injured, for 2 hours in his leathers on a summer day before the friends he was with decided that this very popular guy was missing and not just hanging out at some other pit.

So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by and certainly not when people don't have to care enough to take responsibility for their actions.
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:02 PM   #176
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Bah. More research? I was just talking to Patricia about how this whole thing is like deja vu to me.

Back in 2004, 2 people, a friend of mine plus the wife of the trackday organizer, were stuffed off the track when someone broke the rules of the session by passing on the inside. Their bikes were totaled, both with collarbones broken, and the trackday organizers wife with her leg broken in 2 places. The culprit rode on and never identified himself. We had this same liability conversation 2 years ago with roughly the same conclusion.

Maybe the unwritten " happens" rule worked back when the community was smaller and people had some honor. These days, little can cause major injury and property damage through gross negligence and walk away with a "sore bottom" or feel fine never coming forward at all. Bullshit.

As for the track being safer? Whatever. Another friend at another trackday managed to crash himself off the track, sliding into a position with a low rise (hill) between him and the cornerworker. He roasted out there, seriously injured, for 2 hours in his leathers on a summer day before the friends he was with decided that this very popular guy was missing and not just hanging out at some other pit.

So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by and certainly not when people don't have to care enough to take responsibility for their actions.
This sport is dangerous.

Track condition is safer than street.

Everyone attend trackday are awared that anything, could and can happens.

Everyone understand what happens at the track stay at the track.

BTW, I did stayed at Comfort suite or is it Holiday Inn?
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:06 PM   #177
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Bah. More research? I was just talking to Patricia about how this whole thing is like deja vu to me.

Back in 2004, 2 people, a friend of mine plus the wife of the trackday organizer, were stuffed off the track when someone broke the rules of the session by passing on the inside. Their bikes were totaled, both with collarbones broken, and the trackday organizers wife with her leg broken in 2 places. The culprit rode on and never identified himself. We had this same liability conversation 2 years ago with roughly the same conclusion.

Maybe the unwritten " happens" rule worked back when the community was smaller and people had some honor. These days, little can cause major injury and property damage through gross negligence and walk away with a "sore bottom" or feel fine never coming forward at all. Bullshit.

As for the track being safer? Whatever. Another friend at another trackday managed to crash himself off the track, sliding into a position with a low rise (hill) between him and the cornerworker. He roasted out there, seriously injured, for 2 hours in his leathers on a summer day before the friends he was with decided that this very popular guy was missing and not just hanging out at some other pit.

So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by and certainly not when people don't have to care enough to take responsibility for their actions.
the track is still safer, if that happen on the backroads they could have hit a car, bike, tree, fence, cattle etc.. As far as the guy laying out for 2 hrs if your out in he country it might take even longer pending cell phone service and how far any the nearest town is..
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:09 PM   #178
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So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by and certainly not when people don't have to care enough to take responsibility for their actions.
On the track you only have to worry about people on motorcycles having to take responisbility for their actions.

On the street you have everyone of the elements from the track + cagers + boozers + people who DUI + + +

I'd much rather put myself on the track in a controlled environment rather than on the streets where any hooligan can run you down.
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:14 PM   #179
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So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by and certainly not when people don't have to care enough to take responsibility for their actions.

The way this is worded I would say it is ironic.

So, how many people do you know that have wrecked on the public road ways and laid there for days eventually meeting their death?
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:27 PM   #180
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As for the track being safer? Whatever...So yeah. Don't kid yourself. The track isn't safer...not with cornerworkers and ambulances standing by
Wow. :confused1

IMO, you can't just throw around workds like "wreck" "crash" and "safer" w/o context. What I mean by that is...

Lets say you have around 100 riders at a track day (proabably a tad high, but it makes for easy calculations). I would say that at any given trackday you have ~5 crashes. That's means that 5% ofthe riders that go are going to crash. Now, how many of those result in serious injury? I would say far less than 1%. No disrespect to Patricia, but I would not consider her injuries serious. I would consider serious injuries those that require surgery/overnight stays at the hospital/etc. Plese note: I am not saying her injuries are not painful, etc. But they are not serious when you combine it w/ the context of the accident: T-boned at a decent rate of speed, thrown from the bike, knocked unconcious, etc.

Now, take the street. What % of crashes result in death or serious injury? Rocketbunny, there's your answer. The street is FAR more dangerous than the track as far as your risk of serious injury/death.

Deaths on a motorcycle on the streets is a daily occurance in this country (sometimes a daily occurance in a city like Houston). Deaths & very serious injuries on the track are rare.
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