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Old 07-24-2007, 11:01 AM   #101
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After seeing what happened to your boots, I'm soo glad Patrick convinced me to get a pair of SIDI Air Verts.

I think I've spent more money on gear than I've spent on my bike (which isn't saying much for a ninja 250), but the gear is what's going to save your life and I just have too many people that I'm responsible for to not spend the money on good gear.

I'm so glad that you're ok (over all) and that there is a lesson learned here.
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:22 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
After seeing what happened to your boots, I'm soo glad Patrick convinced me to get a pair of SIDI Air Verts.

I think I've spent more money on gear than I've spent on my bike (which isn't saying much for a ninja 250), but the gear is what's going to save your life and I just have too many people that I'm responsible for to not spend the money on good gear.

I'm so glad that you're ok (over all) and that there is a lesson learned here.
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:24 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
After seeing what happened to your boots, I'm soo glad Patrick convinced me to get a pair of SIDI Air Verts.

I think I've spent more money on gear than I've spent on my bike (which isn't saying much for a ninja 250), but the gear is what's going to save your life and I just have too many people that I'm responsible for to not spend the money on good gear.

I'm so glad that you're ok (over all) and that there is a lesson learned here.
You Sir, are in the minority. Most folks spend all their money on an expensive bike and spend nothing on the gear.

As far as the people that think that this incident will keep them away from the track, the track is still INFINITELY safer than the streets. If this were to happen on the street, the rider could have ridden away, an ambulance would have taken 20+ minutes to respond, and if she were riding alone (like so many folks do) it would have taken only knows how long to even know that the accident happened.

I'm just glad that Patricia will be fine to ride again some day, and now joined the "Z" shaped collar bone club (of which I am a proud, card carryin' member!).
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:33 AM   #104
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the track is still INFINITELY safer than the streets. If this were to happen on the street, the
That was my first (straight) thought. I was glad my crash happened at the track.

And good going Logan5, my next boots will definitely be some really good ones. I really don't care about waterproof and summer anymore. Safety 1st.
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:26 PM   #105
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Old 07-24-2007, 12:32 PM   #106
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:01 AM   #107
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Hi Patricia,

I've been out of town for the last three weeks and I just now got to this. I am so sorry to hear about your wreck. I hope you get well soon. You and Gavin be sure to let me know if there's anything I can do to help you.

Jesse
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:28 AM   #108
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I also want to state my opinion regarding the handling of the other rider. To say that LSTD had to apply the policy fairly and let him continue riding is a cop out and short sighted no matter how much concern and regret has been expressed on their part. For liability and responsibility reasons, LSTD or any organization should reserve the right to make decisions above and beyond the standard policies based upon the circumstances. Our entire judicial system is based upon the interpretation of the laws (in this case track rules) based upon the circumstances.

It's already been discussed that this guy admitted to simultaneously breaking several LSTD rules and then pulling a hit and run. He didn't even stop to render aid after causing the wreck?! I'm sorry, but those actions don't show any regret on his part. Instead he only shows remorse when he gets caught!? He cries a few tears, apologizes to the parties that he didn't even harm, still gets to ride, and is moved up to a faster group?!!! Come on! Isn't that what I read in the posts?

What he did is far from popping wheelies on a straight away and LSTD should have better judgment then to let him back on the track that day. This guy had proven that he was a danger to himself and others. I don't care who you had following him. After all, what could the shadow do if he caused another wreck? That's almost like handing the keys back to a drunk because he was really sorry for causing a wreck and then following him home. He can still kill someone. It's just that this time you have an official witness.

I have always recommended LSTD and I know a few of the instructors, but I'm not going to sugar coat this just because I regard them as friends. LSTD can't and shouldn't hide blindly behind a rule book on this one. The organization has enough common sense and ability to make judgments based upon the circumstances. On the street, this would have been a hit and run accident -- a criminal offense. It should have been dealt with accordingly. I dare say NO ONE other than the guilty rider would have been offended if LSTD had sent the guy home without a refund. In fact by NOT doing so, LSTD probably opened themselves up to more liability.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:45 AM   #109
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:14 AM   #110
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I'm not trying to instigate anyting, but some of what you wrote needs attention.
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It's already been discussed that this guy admitted to simultaneously breaking several LSTD rules...
First, he didn't admit to all of this right after the incident. It's not like LSTD had video tape of the wreck. They had 1 rider trailing the 2 parties involved. That person was riding their own ride and it's not their job to monitor like that. If they saw enough to help, then fine.
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...and then pulling a hit and run. He didn't even stop to render aid after causing the wreck?!
Secondly, that is the LAST thing you are supposed to do. You are never supposed to stop on the track and help. He should have gone straight into pit lane.
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...still gets to ride, and is moved up to a faster group?!!! Come on! Isn't that what I read in the posts?
Like I said before, LSTD did not know all the details. Patricia was intransit to the hospital so they really couldn't get her version. The guy that was responsible wasn't exactly shelling out all the details right away. More was being found out throughout the day.

Should LSTD have made the guy end his day, probably. But LSTD did the best they could w/ the information they had available at the time. By the end of the day it was probably realized the wrong decision was made but hindsight is always 20/20.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:03 AM   #111
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I'm not trying to instigate anyting, but some of what you wrote needs attention.
Nope. I appreciate the discussion.

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It's not like LSTD had video tape of the wreck. They had 1 rider trailing the 2 parties involved. That person was riding their own ride and it's not their job to monitor like that. If they saw enough to help, then fine.
True it's not their job but if they saw enough to give that account that's all LSTD needed to confront this guy. And that's what control riders are supposed to be for. I'd bet the guilty party was obviously seen by some instructors since they confronted him after the session. Their account of the wreck should have been enough for ejection.
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Secondly, that is the LAST thing you are supposed to do. You are never supposed to stop on the track and help. He should have gone straight into pit lane.
That's right. You're not supposed to stop on the track. But according to one witness, this guy ran off the track THEN got back and kept riding flee the scene. I say if you cause a bad wreck an you're off the track you STAY off the track. Chances are you could cause another wreck getting back on.

Regardless of whether someone agrees with me on that. It has been established that he DID NOT go to the pit lane. To me that says he did not accept responsibility for his actions and shows he wasn't sorry for it until he got caught and was confronted.

This was not a newb mistake. A newb mistake is running into a corner too hot and hitting someone. Breaking rules by passing on the inside, then going into corner to hot and hitting someone, and continuing on without pitting is a careless lack of regard.

This should have been enough for ejection.
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First, he didn't admit to all of this right after the incident.
That only proves my point that he didn't care until he was caught. When it was realized that he was not forthcoming with details, I say yank him.
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Like I said before, LSTD did not know all the details. Patricia was intransit to the hospital so they really couldn't get her version. The guy that was responsible wasn't exactly shelling out all the details right away. More was being found out throughout the day.
Yes, but when enough was found out, he should have been done for the day. Most track day programs have a rule that if you wreck yourself you are done for the day because you're supposed to be mentally shaken at that point.

Why the heck does the policy not go the other way? If you collide with SOMEONE else, you are done for the day. This would make people think twice about breaking the rules. After all it is a riding school, not a race.

Quote:
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Should LSTD have made the guy end his day, probably. But LSTD did the best they could w/ the information they had available at the time. By the end of the day it was probably realized the wrong decision was made but hindsight is always 20/20.
The "hind sight is 20/20" is still just a cop out, really. This was a serious violation of several rules. This guy was a legal liability the instant they let him BACK on track after the big confrontation. What little I do remember from legal classes in college is that he had established himself as a foreseeable danger and if he hurt someone else that day no waiver would have protected LSTD because it was bad judgment on their part.

I like LSTD but I'm saying they need to protect themselves and other riders by not allowing this type of rider back on the track. They are a small enough organization to exercise flexible judgment in cases like this. Whether it's a new policy of:
  1. You hit someone and cause a wreck. You're done for the day.
  2. We reserve the right to deal with rule violations on case-by-case basis.
they should have responded differently then and they should respond differently immediately in the future.

We can continue the broader aspect of discussion in another thread but I wanted to post it here because it's directly related to this incident. Thanks for the discussion.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:01 PM   #112
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needless drama.

LSTD made a decision, they said in the future they have a better plan of action on this subject.

If you still dont like it... thats on you.

If you hav FURTHER questions or comments..please email the LSTD staff, they will be glad to talk with you.
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