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Old 08-14-2015, 10:45 PM   #141
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Quote:
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But is there some reason geologists say zircon instead of ZrSiO4 crystals or zirconium silicate crystal? I'm guessing zircon is the name some flat earther gave a rock he found so long ago no one cares. Why not move on? It would help when I go to the natural history museum. TIA
Zircon is the mineral name, it's same as saying quartz instead of SiO4 (silicate). I doubt very seriously a flat earther game that name to rock he found long ago, because they are not easily distinguished in a hand sample without magnification.

A zircon grain is typically a tiny mineral that can and does miraculously GROW over time, rather than erode (like most minerals do) due to weathering. Because of this phenomenon, the center of the grain is older than the outer layers - sometimes by millions, or even billions of years, making it the quintessential mineral for determining a date range for the earth (rocks) through U-Pb decay.

The zircon you're most likely talking about, used as a gemstone, doesn't hold much value to geology. But, hey, we aren't impressed by diamonds, either. Zirconia, or cubic zirconia, isn't a silicate at all, so why would we call it that? Lol.

I hope that helped.
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Old 08-14-2015, 10:47 PM   #142
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Wouldn't it depend on perspective? Just because something is different doesn't it make fake. I wouldn't call helium fake air would I? Theres a line where simplification becomes misleading.
I think saying something is presumed, accepted, misunderstood, alleged, etc, although not being FAKE, can be called fake.

Are fake not real? I can touch them and motorboat them. So what makes something real vs. fake?
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:06 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squoddybody View Post
Zircon is the mineral name, it's same as saying quartz instead of SiO4 (silicate). I doubt very seriously a flat earther game that name to rock he found long ago, because they are not easily distinguished in a hand sample without magnification.

A zircon grain is typically a tiny mineral that can and does miraculously GROW over time, rather than erode (like most minerals do) due to weathering. Because of this phenomenon, the center of the grain is older than the outer layers - sometimes by millions, or even billions of years, making it the quintessential mineral for determining a date range for the earth (rocks) through U-Pb decay.

The zircon you're most likely talking about, used as a gemstone, doesn't hold much value to geology. But, hey, we aren't impressed by diamonds, either. Zirconia, or cubic zirconia, isn't a silicate at all, so why would we call it that? Lol.

I hope that helped.
I don't know why after posting your abstract and me saying ZrSiO4 you think I am most likely talking about ZrO2.

Your explanation has served to explain to me why geologist care so much about zircons. I'm just curious why geologists call them zircons instead of moving on like the rest of us have. When I talk about a tetragonal ZrSiO4 no one thinks I actually mean a monoclinic ZrO2.

If someone tells me the point group I can know the symmetry, bravais lattice and guess the properties. Seems better than a singular use name.
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:07 PM   #144
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Old 08-14-2015, 11:21 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False View Post
I don't know why after posting your abstract and me saying ZrSiO4 you think I am most likely talking about ZrO2.

Your explanation has served to explain to me why geologist care so much about zircons. I'm just curious why geologists call them zircons instead of moving on like the rest of us have. When I talk about a tetragonal ZrSiO4 no one thinks I actually mean a monoclinic ZrO2.

If someone tells me the point group I can know the symmetry, bravais lattice and guess the properties. Seems better than a singular use name.
Because nobody cares that much. Stop being a nerd.

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They make different a sound when you motorboat them. The extra force exerted in the internal structure causes the vibration to be at a different frequency. But they are called implants to me. Fake is a mean thing to say.
Hahaha. Touche' I have noticed a firmness in them, as well. Of course, I haven't had a good motorboat in almost two months... I need to get out more.
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Old 08-15-2015, 01:38 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squoddybody View Post
A zircon grain is typically a tiny mineral that can and does miraculously GROW over time, rather than erode (like most minerals do) due to weathering. Because of this phenomenon, the center of the grain is older than the outer layers - sometimes by millions, or even billions of years, making it the quintessential mineral for determining a date range for the earth (rocks) through U-Pb decay.
Now this is interesting. How does this stuff grow and how does that help with determining its age?

Also are we talking about things I can hold in my hand or fine grains of something I'd need a microscope to see.
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:27 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Now this is interesting. How does this stuff grow and how does that help with determining its age?
So, by saying it 'grows' I was simplifying the crystallization process. Typically mineralization of zircons occurs during magma cooling. Since zircons don't succumb to weathering, they can go through geological processes without changing. Over time, if they are allowed to mix with magma again, a newer mineral will crystallize over the older mineral. By sanding away a smooth surface of the tiny zircon crystal, it's possible to select several spots for testing - basically ablating the zircon and measuring the amount of certain elements.

In this photo that I stole off the internet, you can see the 'rings' on the zircon crystals:
images?qtbnANd9GcTF wMQEE1SA6YIFHTk66lT3kxx BmFYF 0k1sx9YUFcTJdAtIS

I was able to visit the SHRIMP lab at Stanford University (the ONLY SHRIMP lab in the US) to do radiogenic dating (U-Pb) on my zircon samples for age-dating. The SHRIMP lab has made it possible to determine the age of the planet using zircons.

This is an example of age dating (the MA is millions of years):
126 2011 352 Fig11 HTML

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenup283 View Post
Also are we talking about things I can hold in my hand or fine grains of something I'd need a microscope to see.
You can hold them in your hand. They are about the size of a grain of sand - they are visible, but in order to collect them, a sample has to be ground down to a fine powder, and they have to be hand picked using a microscope.
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:32 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False View Post
I don't know why after posting your abstract and me saying ZrSiO4 you think I am most likely talking about ZrO2.

Your explanation has served to explain to me why geologist care so much about zircons. I'm just curious why geologists call them zircons instead of moving on like the rest of us have. When I talk about a tetragonal ZrSiO4 no one thinks I actually mean a monoclinic ZrO2.

If someone tells me the point group I can know the symmetry, bravais lattice and guess the properties. Seems better than a singular use name.
Just realized my previous comment may hurt your feelings if you have a , so I thought I'd clarify. I in no way meant to make you cry. This is all well and good for conversation, but has little to do with understanding difficult topics, or physics, or motorcycles.

I realize I have some blame in thread jacking by posting the abstract in the first place. My intention was not to discuss geology; it was to say that not everybody will understand big words and a heavy subject matter.

One day, we'll have a beer and hash it all out.
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Old 08-15-2015, 03:55 AM   #149
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Cool stuff. Fun to read. I learned something.
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Old 08-15-2015, 09:01 AM   #150
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Thanks Squoddy for taking the time to post that. Very interesting look at the process.

It sparked my interest when you said how wear resistant this stuff is after such long periods of time in the earths harshest environments and then can continue to reform at molten metal magma temperatures to retain its properties.

Basically what I was thinking was if you could mix this fine poweder in with some other materials like aluminum or steel so that if it the parts ever get to molten metal temps from friction wear then the minerals would self deposit and form a hard surface treatment automaticaly on demand and limit the extent of damage or engine seizure.

I also think it's really cool from a geo perspective as well and have far more questions than to bother you with on here. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-15-2015, 08:23 PM   #151
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Thanks Squoddy for taking the time to post that. Very interesting look at the process.

It sparked my interest when you said how wear resistant this stuff is after such long periods of time in the earths harshest environments and then can continue to reform at molten metal magma temperatures to retain its properties.

Basically what I was thinking was if you could mix this fine poweder in with some other materials like aluminum or steel so that if it the parts ever get to molten metal temps from friction wear then the minerals would self deposit and form a hard surface treatment automaticaly on demand and limit the extent of damage or engine seizure.

I also think it's really cool from a geo perspective as well and have far more questions than to bother you with on here. Thanks for sharing.
I like beer.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:32 AM   #152
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I like beer.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for all future nerd alert conversations to be accompanied with some brew. That way we'd all be forced to use simple language and mello out.

I've heard there's a nice beer garten in Pearland. Anyone ever been. A Beer garden would be the perfect place for nerd talk.
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Old 08-16-2015, 10:04 AM   #153
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Just realized my previous comment may hurt your feelings if you have a , so I thought I'd clarify. I in no way meant to make you cry.
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Old 08-16-2015, 11:23 AM   #154
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Quote:
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It wouldn't be a bad idea for all future nerd alert conversations to be accompanied with some brew. That way we'd all be forced to use simple language and mello out.

I've heard there's a nice beer garten in Pearland. Anyone ever been. A Beer garden would be the perfect place for nerd talk.
Been there several times. It's called Kings Biergarten.
All the sausage is made on site, plenty of beer choices and the waitresses are dresses in traditional oompa style (low cut, lots of cleavage and short skirts)
Not in a slutty way like TP just the European norm. It's a pretty good place for nerd talk.
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