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Old 08-14-2015, 05:14 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Shelnutt View Post
Thats what i meant by "move back". The inertia is acting on the dice, putting tension on the srring. Would the tensionon the string not have been caused by inertial force?
The tension to pull the dice forward is being made by the car. Not any different than a rope in tug of war. The car wins. I don't know what term you would use to call the force being placed on a rope in tug of war.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:15 PM   #82
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An easy way to make two 90 degree component forces that oppose the original force vector of the string. The only actual forces are gravity and the string, the angle of vector force of the string is variable with changing mass of the dice and acceleration of the car. Add a fake force and you can determine the strings vertical and horizontal force vector components.
There is no need to "add a fake force" unless you consider the accelerating reference frame. Also, the "added fake force" doesn't tell you anything--it's a convention that you can apply once you have resolved the other determinable forces within that reference frame. It simply exists so that everything can agree with the idea that the reference frame is static when in truth it's actually accelerating.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:18 PM   #83
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Thats what i meant by "move back". The inertia is acting on the dice, putting tension on the srring. Would the tensionon the string not have been caused by inertial force?
There is no "inertia acting on the dice". The inertia is an intrinsic property of the dice due to their mass. If you consider the accelerating reference frame but then pretend that it's not accelerating so that you can treat the forces inside it as though they are in static equilibrium, then you will have to take into account an "inertial force".
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:20 PM   #84
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A body in orbit is continually falling. Maybe a motorcycle is orbiting around a turn. If you turn off gravity then that object in orbit would suddenly continue in a straight line. What would happen if you turned off gravity while a motorcycle was leaned over?
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:20 PM   #85
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There is no need to "add a fake force" unless you consider the accelerating reference frame. Also, the "added fake force" doesn't tell you anything--it's a convention that you can apply once you have resolved the other determinable forces within that reference frame. It simply exists so that everything can agree with the idea that the reference frame is static when in truth it's actually accelerating.
The fake force tells you the horizontal component of the string force (because it is the opposite). The gravity force and the vertical force of the string force is constant (opposites). The fake force is the opposite of the horizontal component of the string force. You find the fake force then it is easier to find and you can know everything about the string force. I don't like this term fake force.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:21 PM   #86
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A body in orbit is continually falling. Maybe a motorcycle is orbiting around a turn. If you turn off gravity then that object in orbit would suddenly continue in a straight line. What would happen if you turned off gravity while a motorcycle was leaned over?
traction would be hard to come by.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:22 PM   #87
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There is no "inertia acting on the dice". The inertia is an intrinsic property of the dice due to their mass. If you consider the accelerating reference frame but then pretend that it's not accelerating so that you can treat the forces inside it as though they are in static equilibrium, then you will have to take into account an "inertial force".
So a motionless object has no inertia?
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:24 PM   #88
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traction would be hard to come by.
Right, but at that instant the bike would still be in contact with the Earth. Let's say the ground is perfectly flat and smooth and the tires are a perfectly smooth circle. The bike would still be in contact with the Earth
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:25 PM   #89
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The fake force tells you the horizontal component of the string force. The gravity force and the vertical force of the string force is constant. The fake force is the opposite of the horizontal component of the string force. You find the fake force then it is easier to find and you can know everything about the string force. I don't like this term fake force.
There is no "find the fake force". The "fake force" is what you're left with when you resolve the determinable forces. Think about it... You're in the car, but none of your instrumentation nor your intuition suggest that the cars is accelerating. What forces can you measure on the dice? You can measure the direction and the magnitude of the tensile force, and thankfully we already know the gravitational force. We can use this information to find the direction and magnitude of the "fake force", not the other way around. Now, if on the other hand we know the car is accelerating and we take the dynamic rather than the static approach to the problem, this whole non-inertial reference frame bullshit is solved without the need for this argument.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:25 PM   #90
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A body in orbit is continually falling. Maybe a motorcycle is orbiting around a turn. If you turn off gravity then that object in orbit would suddenly continue in a straight line. What would happen if you turned off gravity while a motorcycle was leaned over?
Did you just... Divide by zero?
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:25 PM   #91
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:26 PM   #92
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Did you just... Divide by zero?
Did I?
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:27 PM   #93
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:28 PM   #94
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:28 PM   #95
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So a motionless object has no inertia?
I assume that's sarcasm? What I said did not imply that motionless objects had no inertia, it simply implies that inertia is not a thing that acts on the body in question. It's a property of the body.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #96
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #97
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Right, but at that instant the bike would still be in contact with the Earth. Let's say the ground is perfectly flat and smooth and the tires are a perfectly smooth circle. The bike would still be in contact with the Earth
If you "turn off gravity" then the universe is immediately kaput because there's nothing to balance the subatomic forces and every molecule suddenly behaves radically different and the laws of chemistry immediately break down resulting in a sudden heat-death of reality as we know it.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #98
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Nerd alert....indeed.
Ever notice that the Solar system is kind of like an atom? The Sun being the nucleus and the planets being electrons. Maybe our Solar system is actually one atom that's part of a molecule that's part of a single cell that makes up the tissue on a giant dog's nose.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:33 PM   #99
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There is no "find the fake force". The "fake force" is what you're left with when you resolve the determinable forces. Think about it... You're in the car, but none of your instrumentation nor your intuition suggest that the cars is accelerating. What forces can you measure on the dice? You can measure the direction and the magnitude of the tensile force, and thankfully we already know the gravitational force. We can use this information to find the direction and magnitude of the "fake force", not the other way around. Now, if on the other hand we know the car is accelerating and we take the dynamic rather than the static approach to the problem, this whole non-inertial reference frame bullshit is solved without the need for this argument.
Sorry, how are you finding the tensile force of the string exactly? Magic string? Length of string, mass of die, angle of string gives me everything I need without some super string. I can add the gravitational force, the fake force and get the string force.

This is the entire point of fake force. You break down an unknown force (string in this case) into two component 90 degree forces. One of those is known and the fake force is then easier to find than the string force.
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Old 08-14-2015, 05:33 PM   #100
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I assume that's sarcasm? What I said did not imply that motionless objects had no inertia, it simply implies that inertia is not a thing that acts on the body in question. It's a property of the body.
Exactly, so my replies to Shellnut were correct
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