MotoHouston.com MotoHouston.com
Register Members List Member Map Media Calendar Garage Forum Home Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MotoHouston.com > General Discussion > General Discussion (Moto Related)
Forgot info?

Welcome to MotoHouston.com! You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access to the community. By joining our free community you will have access to great discounts from our sponsors, the ability to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content, free email, classifieds, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join our community!

Register Today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.


FREE MH Decals by MAIL!

Advertisement

Reply
Share This Thread: 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
Old 08-14-2015, 03:49 PM   #41
pigfarmer
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: River Oaks
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,532

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
Salsa Horsethief
Paugcho bobber








User is banned

.
pigfarmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anybody here into Physics? Squoddybody Off Topic 26 06-25-2013 12:58 PM
Physics of Motocross Scorpio Dirtbikes, Mini's, ATV's..... 4 06-19-2012 08:09 AM
nerd rage bunxx Off Topic 1 10-28-2011 12:47 AM
Who else is a nerd? cedestech Off Topic 20 04-06-2010 03:19 AM
Explain Physics of This to Me specterunseen General Discussion (Moto Related) 31 04-11-2008 11:23 AM
Advertisement
Old 08-14-2015, 03:50 PM   #42
Flip Flop
Ordained Minister
 
Flip Flop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Cypress
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 10,518

Experience: 1 year

Bike(s):
2006 SV650S(sold)(happy now?)
Toes Ducati Multistrada(what now buck?)








Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inertia+force

Inertia force 1.
an imaginary force supposed to act upon an accelerated body, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the resultant of the real forces
Yeah I'll have to agree with Repth and say that is a terrible definition. Even the Wikipedia one is better than that.
Flip Flop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:54 PM   #43
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







Quote:
Originally Posted by Repth View Post
That is a very unfavorable definition. I prefer another definition:

"An apparent force, proportional to a body's mass, that appears to affect the body within a noninertial frame but is absent from the point of view of an inertial frame. Centrifugal forces and Coriolis forces are inertial forces."

To call it a fake force is so misleading, as if there is not actually a reason for the dice moving backwards. The idea of a "fake force" only exists because we introduced the convention of a non-inertial reference frame, which sometimes makes things easier to calculate mathematically but rarely ever makes them easier to understand. When you call it a fake force you are not making the connection to why we include that term at all. I think that is very misleading.
So you agree that inertial forces are in fact fake and only used to help understand why it seems like the dice moves backwards? Because "apparent" means seeming real or true, but not necessarily so.

Are you just argueing his choice of words or the validity of his statements?
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:55 PM   #44
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







I googled inertia force and came up with this Wikipedia article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:56 PM   #45
maxgs
Guest
 
Posts: n/a







Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inertia+force

Inertia force 1.
an imaginary force supposed to act upon an accelerated body, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the resultant of the real forces
BOOM!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 03:58 PM   #46
maxgs
Guest
 
Posts: n/a







Member Garage





I remember it from centrifugal force... Below is that definition.


In Newtonian mechanics, the term centrifugal force is used to refer to an inertial force (also called a 'fictitious' force) that appears to act on all objects when viewed in a rotating reference frame, drawing them away from the axis.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:00 PM   #47
Flip Flop
Ordained Minister
 
Flip Flop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Cypress
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 10,518

Experience: 1 year

Bike(s):
2006 SV650S(sold)(happy now?)
Toes Ducati Multistrada(what now buck?)








Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
I googled inertia force and came up with this Wikipedia article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_force
https://www.google.com/search?q=iner...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

Quote:
Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion including changes to its speed and direction or the state of rest. It is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant velocity.
Also from Wikipedia
Flip Flop is online now   Reply With Quote
Liked this post:
Old 08-14-2015, 04:01 PM   #48
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelnutt View Post
I'm sorry I thought we were talking about inertia forces not inertia.
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:01 PM   #49
Flip Flop
Ordained Minister
 
Flip Flop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Cypress
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 10,518

Experience: 1 year

Bike(s):
2006 SV650S(sold)(happy now?)
Toes Ducati Multistrada(what now buck?)








Riddle me this...

If inertia is fake, why is the REAL force acting on it. The dice aren't moving by themselves.
Flip Flop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:03 PM   #50
Repth
Keyboard Warrior
 
Repth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 3,606

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
'14 Street Triple R









I'm not arguing that people use the terms "fake", "fictitious", or "pseudo" to describe inertial forces. The dice don't "seem" to move backwards--they do move backwards and that is because of the forces acting upon them. I'm not arguing about his choice of words or the validity of his statements--I'm arguing that using a non-inertial reference frame to explain the situation to the layman is foolish and shortsighted and that even if you did want to use a non-inertial reference frame then it's best to at least refer to the force that causes the dice to swing back as an inertial force because it might just help the average person connect the dots rather than wonder where the a "fake force" comes from and why we have to use it.
__________________
"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You end up getting dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Repth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:04 PM   #51
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelnutt View Post
Riddle me this...

If inertia is fake, why is the REAL force acting on it. The dice aren't moving by themselves.
Inertia isn't fake, inertial forces are. The dice are only moving forward and they are being accelerated by the tension force in the string that is holding hem up.
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:07 PM   #52
Repth
Keyboard Warrior
 
Repth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 3,606

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
'14 Street Triple R









Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inertia+force

Inertia force 1.
an imaginary force supposed to act upon an accelerated body, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the resultant of the real forces
Yes, I too can google definitions. Here's the thing, there's not always just one definition for a term. I already posted one that I think more appropriately explains what an inertial force is. Like I said, I'm not arguing that some people refer to inertial forces this way, I'm simply arguing that it's silly, unnecessary, and unintuitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
BOOM!
Someone's still upset about getting schooled on the last physics discussion...
__________________
"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You end up getting dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Repth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:13 PM   #53
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







Quote:
Originally Posted by Repth View Post
Yes, I too can google definitions. Here's the thing, there's not always just one definition for a term. I already posted one that I think more appropriately explains what an inertial force is. Like I said, I'm not arguing that some people refer to inertial forces this way, I'm simply arguing that it's silly, unnecessary, and unintuitive.



Someone's still upset about getting schooled on the last physics discussion...
Your definition is pretty much the exact same as that one.
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:16 PM   #54
Repth
Keyboard Warrior
 
Repth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 3,606

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
'14 Street Triple R









Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
Your definition is pretty much the exact same as that one.
Yeah, it's effectively the same because we both understand the physics already. I'm not trying to tell you that either one of us would have a problem referring to those forces in either convention, but I'm trying to say that I think that he explained it horribly to the layman.
__________________
"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You end up getting dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Repth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:20 PM   #55
ArkansasDave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Beaumont
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 1,978

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
2010 CRF450R
2014 Honda Grom
2015 KTM 250xc







And saying non inertial reference frame is gonna help? I think you over estimate the average layman.
ArkansasDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:24 PM   #56
Flip Flop
Ordained Minister
 
Flip Flop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Cypress
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 10,518

Experience: 1 year

Bike(s):
2006 SV650S(sold)(happy now?)
Toes Ducati Multistrada(what now buck?)








Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
Inertia isn't fake, inertial forces are. The dice are only moving forward and they are being accelerated by the tension force in the string that is holding hem up.
Is the string causing them to move backwards? I always thought inwrtia was causing the object not to want to accelrate with the car and the only reason the dice dont continue to move backwards is because they are attached to the car with a string
Flip Flop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:33 PM   #57
maxgs
Guest
 
Posts: n/a







Member Garage





Quote:
Originally Posted by Repth View Post
Yes, I too can google definitions. Here's the thing, there's not always just one definition for a term. I already posted one that I think more appropriately explains what an inertial force is. Like I said, I'm not arguing that some people refer to inertial forces this way, I'm simply arguing that it's silly, unnecessary, and unintuitive.



Someone's still upset about getting schooled on the last physics discussion...
I don't think so. You never proved your point. And we gave you ample opportunity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:34 PM   #58
maxgs
Guest
 
Posts: n/a







Member Garage





I am assuming you have a degree in Physics? Maybe mechanical engineering?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:37 PM   #59
Flip Flop
Ordained Minister
 
Flip Flop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Cypress
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 10,518

Experience: 1 year

Bike(s):
2006 SV650S(sold)(happy now?)
Toes Ducati Multistrada(what now buck?)








Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelnutt View Post
Is the string causing them to move backwards? I always thought inwrtia was causing the object not to want to accelrate with the car and the only reason the dice dont continue to move backwards is because they are attached to the car with a string
In other words, what is the name of the force that caused the dice to put tension on the string to begin with?
Flip Flop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2015, 04:40 PM   #60
Repth
Keyboard Warrior
 
Repth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 3,606

Experience: 2 years
Trackdays: 2

Bike(s):
'14 Street Triple R









Quote:
Originally Posted by maxgs View Post
I don't think so. You never proved your point. And we gave you ample opportunity.
If you can't understand the language that I have to use to prove my point (physics) then of course you regard the point as unproven.
__________________
"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You end up getting dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Repth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Advertisement


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:24 PM.


MotoHouston.com is not responsible for the content posted by users.
Privacy Policy