MotoHouston.com MotoHouston.com
Register Members List Member Map Media Calendar Garage Forum Home Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MotoHouston.com > Safety Corner > Gear Talk
Forgot info?

Welcome to MotoHouston.com! You are currently viewing our forums as a guest which gives you limited access to the community. By joining our free community you will have access to great discounts from our sponsors, the ability to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content, free email, classifieds, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, join our community!

Register Today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.


Like us on Facebook! Regular shirt GIVEAWAYS and more

Advertisement

Reply
Share This Thread: 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
Old 06-30-2007, 04:55 PM   #1
MagnaMan
Peg Scraper
 
MagnaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NW Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 204


Bike(s):
99 Honda Magna









Snell Schmell?

I've heard about this article from a few other riders:
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...helmet_review/
(It's really really long)

Synopsis:
Their position is that the Snell standard is out of date and doesn't jive with actual crash data that has been collected. Based upon this data, these guys hired some industry experts to design tests and smash 32 helmets. The results? The DOT helmets actually transmitted less force into the "test head" than the Snell helmets. The all around winner was an $80 ZR1 helmet. Runner up was a $600 Schuberth helmet designed to European specs.

Thoughts anyone?
__________________
Hey that's me in post 166! -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...?t=8652&page=9
My rant about MH squids -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=36
MagnaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Snell M2015 Standard CUZ General Discussion (Moto Related) 8 11-27-2014 06:27 PM
Snell-Every 5 Years Bevo Gear Talk 8 01-05-2012 12:46 PM
DOT, SNELL 2005, SNELL 2010 Jerzey Gear Talk 11 04-22-2010 09:31 AM
How about a Snell certified flip-up? philipx Gear Talk 6 06-01-2009 06:35 AM
Snell rating too stiff? witchdoctor575 General Discussion (Moto Related) 4 08-23-2006 10:20 PM
Advertisement
Old 06-30-2007, 05:15 PM   #2
Chris24
Thread Savior
 
Chris24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: West Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 4,635

Experience: 8 years

Bike(s):
1979 Yamaha XS1100 Special









Send a message via AIM to Chris24 Send a message via MSN to Chris24 Send a message via Yahoo to Chris24
my opinion is that each standard has a different viewpoint of what to protect from. read the article you will see that snell protects from high energy impacts, i.e. high speeds or violent crashes. that is what they are made for.

many of the other helmets are made for more "everyday" accidents where riders are most likely doing the speed limit, and a literal "accident" happens.

the data used to collect information about accidents is likely the average. if your an average rider, go by the average standard. if your a racer, or ride like your racing, you more likely need the snell approved spec.

just my $0.02...

you never know how your going down, and i cant guess that even for myself. but based on my experiance, and actual "close calls" that ive saved myself from going down using skills and instinct ive gained, i doubt im gonna go down at less than 70 mph. like i said im not saying i wont, but if i HAD to guess, id say im less likely to go down while cruising to work or to jack in the box, and more likely to go down when i start doing trackdays or if im "misbehaving"

thats just me, though. your results may vary.
__________________
Brought to you by Carls Jr.!
Chris24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 07:18 PM   #3
Patrick
Motorcycles Unlimited
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 16,367

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
'14 Speed Triple R, '82 CB900F, '13 Streetglide






I've crashed on the street and track in both Snell and BSI approved helmets, (Arai and Suomy respectively) more times than I care to remember.

I'll keep wearing them before I buy / wear a $90.00 Z1R, but it's your choice, I've made mine.
__________________
Call or PM for the BEST PRICES in Houston for PARTS and ACCESSORIES.
MAKE SURE TO MENTION YOU'RE ON MH TO GET THE BEST PRICE!

NEED GEAR? We have a great selection in stock but if we need to order it we GUARANTEE FIT!
Where Houston riders go to have their bikes worked on, done right the first time!


muad

1964 FM 1960 West
Houston, TX 77090
Hours: Tues.-Fri. 9:30-6:00 Sat. 9-5:30
www.motorcycles-unlimited.com
http://www.facebook.com/motorcyclesunlimited
e-mail: patrick@motorcycles-unlimited.com
Patrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 08:29 PM   #4
SVmike
nuthin'
 
SVmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 911

Experience: 3 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
just a mtn bike now...









Send a message via AIM to SVmike
I remember that article. It's the reason I didn't buy a snell certified helmet. I went ECE/DOT and bought a Shark but that was after I picked up a Scorpion exo400 (DOT only). 300G's to the head does sound excessive and the fact that the same companies selling snell certified helmets in the U.S. sell ECE/BSI rated models everywhere else is a little disturbing.

Would I trust a $90 ZR1? If it's DOT rated, yes because there SHOULDN'T be much difference safety wise b/n a ZR1 and a Scorpion exo400 as they both pass DOT testing. The difference will be in comfort, fit and finish, removable padding etc.... Would I rather spend 5 times the amount to buy a nicer, safer helmet that makes me feel warm inside? You're skippy I would.

I'd like to know what MotoGP and Superbike racers use on their heads. Does Nicky Hayden where a SNELL or ECE Arai?
__________________
Wishing I hadn't sold my bike
SVmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 09:15 PM   #5
RACER X
what R you lookin' at?
 
RACER X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, Tx
Feedback Rating: (26)
Posts: 33,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 8

Bike(s):
'14 Honda GROM! 181cc of fury!!
'10 Aprilia Tuono Factory-SOLD
'08 Busa - sold
A few more bought
A few more sold






coincidental that the largest advertiser of motorcyclist magazine is the sole distrubutor of the ZR1's?
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
2014 GROM
181cc's BABY!
Trump/Zimmerman 2016
Make America Great Again!
RACER X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2007, 10:20 PM   #6
Patrick
Motorcycles Unlimited
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 16,367

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
'14 Speed Triple R, '82 CB900F, '13 Streetglide






And owns the company that Mfr's them as well...........
__________________
Call or PM for the BEST PRICES in Houston for PARTS and ACCESSORIES.
MAKE SURE TO MENTION YOU'RE ON MH TO GET THE BEST PRICE!

NEED GEAR? We have a great selection in stock but if we need to order it we GUARANTEE FIT!
Where Houston riders go to have their bikes worked on, done right the first time!


muad

1964 FM 1960 West
Houston, TX 77090
Hours: Tues.-Fri. 9:30-6:00 Sat. 9-5:30
www.motorcycles-unlimited.com
http://www.facebook.com/motorcyclesunlimited
e-mail: patrick@motorcycles-unlimited.com
Patrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 09:00 AM   #7
RACER X
what R you lookin' at?
 
RACER X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, Tx
Feedback Rating: (26)
Posts: 33,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 8

Bike(s):
'14 Honda GROM! 181cc of fury!!
'10 Aprilia Tuono Factory-SOLD
'08 Busa - sold
A few more bought
A few more sold






Quote:
Originally Posted by SVmike

Would I trust a $90 ZR1? If it's DOT rated, yes because there SHOULDN'T be much difference safety wise b/n a ZR1 and a Scorpion exo400 as they both pass DOT testing.
you realize DOT is a minimum standard.

if you knew you were gonna be in a car wreck, would you rather be in a Volvo or Daewoo?
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
2014 GROM
181cc's BABY!
Trump/Zimmerman 2016
Make America Great Again!
RACER X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 10:50 AM   #8
Blue91
10.13.07
 
Blue91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NW Houston
Feedback Rating: (3)
Posts: 2,217

Experience: 7 years

Bike(s):
2010 White R6
2003 Silver R6 (sold)



Member Garage





Send a message via Yahoo to Blue91
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVmike
I remember that article. It's the reason I didn't buy a snell certified helmet. I went ECE/DOT and bought a Shark but that was after I picked up a Scorpion exo400 (DOT only). 300G's to the head does sound excessive and the fact that the same companies selling snell certified helmets in the U.S. sell ECE/BSI rated models everywhere else is a little disturbing.

Would I trust a $90 ZR1? If it's DOT rated, yes because there SHOULDN'T be much difference safety wise b/n a ZR1 and a Scorpion exo400 as they both pass DOT testing. The difference will be in comfort, fit and finish, removable padding etc.... Would I rather spend 5 times the amount to buy a nicer, safer helmet that makes me feel warm inside? You're skippy I would.

I'd like to know what MotoGP and Superbike racers use on their heads. Does Nicky Hayden where a SNELL or ECE Arai?
When did you get your EXO400? Their site says the EXO400 is Snell and DOT cert. My g/f's 400 has the Snell logo on it.
__________________
gixxerbill - MotoHouston.com's Lifetime Intolerance Award Winner

Blue91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 11:36 AM   #9
SecretAgent
The one and only
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: SW Houston
Feedback Rating: (1)
Posts: 1,986


Bike(s):
08 Harley FXDB Street Bob









Send a message via AIM to SecretAgent
Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X
you realize DOT is a minimum standard.

if you knew you were gonna be in a car wreck, would you rather be in a Volvo or Daewoo?
not to mention DOT standards are based on the honor policy. meaning they don't actually test any helmets themselves to say they pass the standard. they rely on the honesty of the helmet manufacturers to say that their own helmets meet the DOT standard.
__________________
"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them - but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one. That is why they are dangerous. "
-Hunter S. Thompson
SecretAgent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 11:55 AM   #10
SVmike
nuthin'
 
SVmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 911

Experience: 3 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
just a mtn bike now...









Send a message via AIM to SVmike
Didn't know about the magazine being the manufacturer/distributor of zr1. After reading the article some more, it does sound like an ad for zr1. Scary stuff.
After skimming over the article again I remember why I bought the Exo400 which IS SNELL(i was wrong in my other post) certified. In the mag's testing they found the 400 to be one of the softer SNELL helmets and I didn't want a helmet that was only tested in-house. I know DOT testing is the minimum standard but forgot that it works on the honor system. With that I must change my answer to NO, I would not trust a DOT only helmet.
The article did, however, steer me away from buying a more expensive SNELL helmet. I was looking at a Arai but the article along with the pad lining and face shield system pushed me to look at other helmets. I bought the Exo as a cheap helmet to use while I looked for a nicer lid. Ended up purchasing a Shark RSR2 and love it. It's ECE rated, has super comfy padding/lining and the visor system is amazing. If I was to go out and buy another helmet now, I wouldn't much care if it were ECE, BSI, or SNELL just as long as it's certified by one of the three. Now if the same model helmet was offered in SNELL or ECE I would choose the ECE version.

I'd still like to know what MotoGP and Superbike racers wear if anyone can help with that.
__________________
Wishing I hadn't sold my bike
SVmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2007, 11:24 PM   #11
MagnaMan
Peg Scraper
 
MagnaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NW Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 204


Bike(s):
99 Honda Magna









Just a few thoughts here to contribute to the good discussion already presented.

Bias
Was their major advertiser the distributor BEFORE or AFTER the magazine published this article? If I was that company and my helmet got a good review like that, you can bet I would start advertising there because the sheer volume of potential traffic from Google reading that article would be high. It's a good chance to meet potential customers.

Just out of curiosity, where did the advertising information come from anyway? Was it on their site?

Selling out
Another thing is that the people they interview in that article (like Hurt) are leading motorcycle accident and safety researchers. They even hired one of them to conduct the tests. I doubt they could "bribe" those inviduals with any money that was the result from an increase in sales of a cheap $80 helmet.

Still some good points
But even ignoring that... The article brings up some good points about the Snell standard and how it's not updated based upon accident information. And it also points out that there are different European standards. That alone says quite a bit. The Europeans always seem to be ahead in terms of safety certification. I mean, we look for CE certification in our armor don't we? I could be wrong but I don't believe the US even has an armor certification standard, yet.

It's almost like the Snell standard subscribes to the "tougher is better" theory. Even our cars are no longer made to that theory. Older cars handled wrecks better cosmetically but transmitted more impact to the passengers inside. Today they have crumple zones all over and wad up so that the force of impact is minimal. Why wouldn't we want that in our helmets? (Assuming they don't disintegrate in a wreck.)

DOT minimum

As far as DOT being the minimum standard. Yes it is. And that was the point of the article. It kind of goes back to my car analogy earlier.

But I totally agree. The one thing that I like about Snell is that the helmets are supposed to re-tested from off-the-shelf models rather than DOT just taking their word for it.

SVMike has posed the best questions
1. Why are Arai and Shoei are making helmets to different standards in other regions? If Snell is all that, because it exceeds those standards impact-wise, then why wouldn't they just sell Snell worldwide?

2. And what are the MotoGP riders wearing? The Snell or the ECE version?

Results
So am I going to run out and buy an $80 Z1R? Heck no. I tried one on and they are not comfortable at all. My Scorpion fits much better and that's important. But this article does make me think that next time around I'll be going for the softer SNELL rated EXO 400 or I may go for one of the ECE helmets.

Oh and I should mention that this article is not supposed to be the only one. It's just the one I found first on Google. There's supposed to be some more studies out there comparing Snell to other standards. Does anyone else have some links?

Thanks to everyone for the good discussion.
__________________
Hey that's me in post 166! -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...?t=8652&page=9
My rant about MH squids -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=36
MagnaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2007, 06:54 AM   #12
RACER X
what R you lookin' at?
 
RACER X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, Tx
Feedback Rating: (26)
Posts: 33,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 8

Bike(s):
'14 Honda GROM! 181cc of fury!!
'10 Aprilia Tuono Factory-SOLD
'08 Busa - sold
A few more bought
A few more sold






Parts Unlimited is the largest and has been the largest advertiser of motorcyclist mag. prior to the article. they are also the sole manuf. and dist. of that lid.

look in their mag. P/U is everywhere.

nobody knows what certifies for what. who's to say a SNELL lid here is any diff. then a euro lid. same lid, just rebadged for diff. certs.

from what i've read sponsored racers get off the rack, don't know about euro or us standards. vs the "lesser" brand sponsered lids that are basically custom made w/ "of the rack" paintjobs.

haven't seen any other articles other then the motorcyclist one.

damm SNELL specs, rider survived w/ a concussion.

news crashhel
[img]
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
2014 GROM
181cc's BABY!
Trump/Zimmerman 2016
Make America Great Again!
RACER X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2007, 07:16 AM   #13
MagnaMan
Peg Scraper
 
MagnaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NW Houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 204


Bike(s):
99 Honda Magna









Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X
damm SNELL specs, rider survived w/ a concussion.

news crashhel
[img]
Ah. Yes. But would he have gotten a concussion at all if his Arai hadn't transmitted 201 Gs of force into his head as opposed to say a Scorpion Exo 400 Snell that transmits only 187 Gs of force to the head?
__________________
Hey that's me in post 166! -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...?t=8652&page=9
My rant about MH squids -> http://www.motohouston.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=36
MagnaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2007, 07:23 AM   #14
Patrick
Motorcycles Unlimited
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Houston
Feedback Rating: (2)
Posts: 16,367

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
'14 Speed Triple R, '82 CB900F, '13 Streetglide






To add to what Ed said;
Having a Snell certification is not a U.S. necessity, however in order to sell helmets in Europe, having an ECE or BSI decal is a requirement.

A lot of our racing organizations require a Snell rating in order to wear the helmet in competition though, and that may be why a lot of the helmets coming to the U.S. market have them.

I remember when Suomy came out, and it had the BSI decal, no Snell. It was quite an argument to get the WERA tech directer to let it pass.

Irregardless if the Arai / Shoei etc. is for the Euro market or here, it's the SAME helmet, just one has an ECE decal and the other a Snell.
While the tests are different, the helmets are the same, they just pass BOTH tests. I was told as much by both Arai and Shoei representatives during product seminars.

Does having a high end helmet guarantee you have a better chance of surviving a get off over a $90.00 one?

I don't know, but I'm not willing to try to find out.

As I've stated earlier, I've bounced my head off of more pavement than I care to remember. I credit my ability to still speak in full sentences to the fact that I was wearing a higher end helmet when my noggin touched the tarmac.

I don't care what any magazine test says, particularly one whose testing methods / motives may have been suspect. I've done my own testing and am the proof.

My 2 cents, YMMV.
__________________
Call or PM for the BEST PRICES in Houston for PARTS and ACCESSORIES.
MAKE SURE TO MENTION YOU'RE ON MH TO GET THE BEST PRICE!

NEED GEAR? We have a great selection in stock but if we need to order it we GUARANTEE FIT!
Where Houston riders go to have their bikes worked on, done right the first time!


muad

1964 FM 1960 West
Houston, TX 77090
Hours: Tues.-Fri. 9:30-6:00 Sat. 9-5:30
www.motorcycles-unlimited.com
http://www.facebook.com/motorcyclesunlimited
e-mail: patrick@motorcycles-unlimited.com
Patrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2007, 09:27 PM   #15
SVmike
nuthin'
 
SVmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: houston
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 911

Experience: 3 years
Trackdays: 10+

Bike(s):
just a mtn bike now...









Send a message via AIM to SVmike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Irregardless if the Arai / Shoei etc. is for the Euro market or here, it's the SAME helmet, just one has an ECE decal and the other a Snell.
While the tests are different, the helmets are the same, they just pass BOTH tests. I was told as much by both Arai and Shoei representatives during product seminars.
That is a really good point. According to the article, SNELL allows for a MAXIMUM of 300G's and ECE allows a maximum of 275G's so a Shark RSR2 could pass both certification tests by not transmitting more than 275G's. Still, I don't see why SNELL wouldn't update their data and testing. Sounds like they don't want to but I highly doubt they are out to make a buck by not doing so.

I was wondering how long it would be before somebody posted that bashed Arai.
__________________
Wishing I hadn't sold my bike

Last edited by SVmike; 07-02-2007 at 09:30 PM.
SVmike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2007, 09:39 PM   #16
bjoconnor
street newb
 
bjoconnor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 73


Bike(s):
'07 SV650S









Glad to hear this, because I bought a Shark RSI, which is ECE, and didn't know whether it was as good as Snell or not. I only went by what the sales guy told me. I had never even heard of Shark before.
bjoconnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:25 AM   #17
RACER X
what R you lookin' at?
 
RACER X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, Tx
Feedback Rating: (26)
Posts: 33,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 8

Bike(s):
'14 Honda GROM! 181cc of fury!!
'10 Aprilia Tuono Factory-SOLD
'08 Busa - sold
A few more bought
A few more sold






^ does it have a DOT sticker on it as well?
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
2014 GROM
181cc's BABY!
Trump/Zimmerman 2016
Make America Great Again!
RACER X is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:19 AM   #18
bjoconnor
street newb
 
bjoconnor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Feedback Rating: (0)
Posts: 73


Bike(s):
'07 SV650S









yea...but directly above, where the Snell logo would normally be, it has the logo "ECE/22-05"
bjoconnor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:34 AM   #19
RACER X
what R you lookin' at?
 
RACER X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, Tx
Feedback Rating: (26)
Posts: 33,486

Experience: 10+ years
Trackdays: 8

Bike(s):
'14 Honda GROM! 181cc of fury!!
'10 Aprilia Tuono Factory-SOLD
'08 Busa - sold
A few more bought
A few more sold






cool, not having a DOT sticker, can still get you a ticket.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
2014 GROM
181cc's BABY!
Trump/Zimmerman 2016
Make America Great Again!
RACER X is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Advertisement


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:05 PM.


MotoHouston.com is not responsible for the content posted by users.
Privacy Policy