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Old 07-10-2015, 09:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pigfarmer View Post
Countersteer this .... I dare you.
I already got one
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:13 PM   #22
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Backwards Steering Bike

The guy probably could have ridden the backwards steering bike if he had tried without holding the handlebars, nor looking at them. Of course, the hardest part would be at first, where his speed is too slow. And if he needed to change course significantly, then he would be SOL.

I remember when I was about 14, somebody challenged me to cross my hands on the handlebars - right hand on left side - left hand on right side. i still have a scar on my elbow where I immediately hit the ground.
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:15 PM   #23
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:59 PM   #24
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Old 07-11-2015, 06:59 AM   #25
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Yup, spinning up the motor stabilizes the bike. That's also partly why manufacturers pay so much attention to engine/crank position/direction of rotation on a race bike - it can help get the bike turned more easily.

That's also why the Norton Rotary (among others) was a to turn - too much rotating mass.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:31 PM   #26
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I figured that is what you were talking about. And I agree the effects of engine are real and significant.

The link below is a good online refernce for gyroscopic effects on vehicles and gives an example problem on motorcycles.

https://books.google.de/books?id=T_W...r%20cw&f=false


I ran these numbers some time ago for a comparison of reverse rotating crank, such as Yahmahas MotoGP bike, in comparison to a fwd rotating one like on Honda, and find the benefit is a gain in corner speed by canceling out some of the fwd rotating tire inertia which resists changing direction.

What I found was it alowed to go through a given turn radius at same speed with 2-3 deg Less lean angle. It works out to several percent less cornering g' for same corner speed. Likewise when the same grip level, corner g, is assumed then it correlates to increased corner speed.

You may find it intersting as well.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by trunxgp1224 View Post
Bevo, watch one of the videos I've posted and tell me how a bike with none of those properties in your post still manages to stay upright.
I know your not asking me, but I think a clue is that it took half the length of a gym to carefully run it up to speed to the point where it could become self stable. In comparison with a conventional bike the same can be done in an arms length without even moving your feet.

It seems to me they need to build up enough linear inertia in that stick so it can continue on a course an that intertia leads the way to making the same corrective actions for stability. By contrast a normal bike with two wheels would be like two long sticks on his bike. We just don't see them that way because they are wrapped around in a circle. To simulate a 20" wheel bike he'd need two 6 foot long poles, 3.14x diameter.
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Old 07-11-2015, 05:31 PM   #28
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Old 07-11-2015, 06:25 PM   #29
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I feel super nerdy for thinking that Delft University video was interesting.
I'm an adult. If anybody thinks I'm uncool for being able to sit through 15min of a very high level physics talk (come on, there wasn't even any math involved), then they're not people I'm interested in impressing...
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Old 07-11-2015, 06:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by trunxgp1224 View Post
Bevo, watch one of the videos I've posted and tell me how a bike with none of those properties in your post still manages to stay upright.
Because it shares the most important property of a traditional bicycle, it turns into a fall.
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Old 07-11-2015, 08:35 PM   #31
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Yeah that was a good video.

I understand that when we steer a motorcycle by pushing on the right bar to go right, we are at first steering the front wheel to the left which causes the bike to fall right. Then I know the motorcycle tries to correct it's balance by turning the front wheel back to right to follow the mass. I still have not quite understood why it is that if the rider pushes harder on the right bar it continues to turn more to the right and if you continue push harder the bike will run out of lean angle clearance and crash. What is it about this increasing force we put between the bar and the chassis of the bike that makes it turn.

When you hang off the bike, you change the center of gravity so during the corner you have to put less force into the bars and use less lean angle. You can steer the bike by changing your body posision but it's just a small affect on direction.

Last edited by Tiller; 07-11-2015 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 07-11-2015, 10:13 PM   #32
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You can steer the bike by changing your body posision but it's just a small affect on direction.
I'm not so sure about that. Once you've used the bars to point the bike in the direction you want it to go, it will maintain that line no matter what position your body is in. In the same turn, the faster you go the more force is required to turn the bike, but I'm pretty sure the bar's angle stays constant for that turn though all speeds that require countersteering. The only thing that changes in that turn is the amount of force on the bar, not the bar's angle.
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Old 07-11-2015, 10:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Yeah that was a good video.

I understand that when we steer a motorcycle by pushing on the right bar to go right, we are at first steering the front wheel to the left which causes the bike to fall right. Then I know the motorcycle tries to correct it's balance by turning the front wheel back to right to follow the mass. I still have not quite understood why it is that if the rider pushes harder on the right bar it continues to turn more to the right and if you continue push harder the bike will run out of lean angle clearance and crash. What is it about this increasing force we put between the bar and the chassis of the bike that makes it turn.

When you hang off the bike, you change the center of gravity so during the corner you have to put less force into the bars and use less lean angle. You can steer the bike by changing your body position but it's just a small affect on direction.
IMO...
as you push/pull (from the inside or pull from the outside), you stop the bike from righting itself and continue keeping the weight off balanced (falling) so the bike stays in a turn, by pushing/pulling more or less you can control how much the bike turns while its trying to compensate.

Using the throttle or brakes (while in the turn, as well as in a straight) helps control the weight distribution front to back in conjunction with the suspension.

Positioning the body off and lower simply keeps the bike more upright for better tire contact..


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Old 07-11-2015, 11:40 PM   #34
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:10 AM   #35
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all i know is that i stretched my legs tonight. Used nothing but bar input aggressively dip into and to get out of a corner. i only hang off to look like a badass.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:28 AM   #36
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I can ride my bike with no handle bars
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:17 AM   #37
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I can ride my bike with no handle bars
Nice flobots reference
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:55 PM   #38
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Think about a tennis player, standing ready for the ball to be returned from the opponent. That player usually needs to move quickly to his right or left, depending upon where the ball is being returned. Notice that the player keeps their feet spread apart. They must be ready to "push off" to the right or left in order to change position, right or left. If the player needs to move to the left - they push off with the right foot. Vice versa for the other way. The player could not shift position very effectively if their feet were held together touching each other.

Now on the motorcycle it also needs to "push off" in order to turn. And that is done by moving the wheels and tires out from under the center of mass. For a right turn, you move the wheels out from under the bike toward the left. And that is done by turning the front wheel to the left - which is accomplished by pressing forward on the right handlebar. If you press even harder on the right bar, you move the wheels even further to the left, further increasing the lean angle.

Also the greater "rake" angle of the forks, such as 30+ degrees on a cruiser, will keep the motorcycle going straight forward, more than a lesser angle, such as 24 degrees on a sport bike.

Finally, notice how the triple trees positions the forks "forward" from the steering axis that is held within the frame by the upper and lower bearings. This places the weight of the forks, triple tree, front wheel and tire - all ahead of the steering axis. On a bicycle, this is accomplished by the forward "curve" of the forks. By having this mass forward, then when the bike leans in one direction - then the "weight" of the front wheel assembly - falls gently toward this direction. This accomplishes the steering correction that allows the bike to remain upright even when deviating from a straight line.

It is all a tedious balancing act.
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Old 07-12-2015, 08:57 PM   #39
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Nice flobots reference
I honestly didn't think anybody remembered that verse
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:51 PM   #40
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