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Old 12-10-2014, 10:21 AM   #21
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Last time I checked NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle uses chain drive and make close to 400 HP Naturally Aspirated. In addition that chain drive in this application sees a higher stress than your application. Drag racing is simply about acceleration (in a nut shell) so they reach over 200MPH in 6.5 seconds.

Here are two articles to get you started on understanding why a chain is more efficient over a shaft drive. There is reason MotoGP, NHRA, IOMTT, AMA all use chain drives.

http://physics.info/rotational-inertia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moment_of_inertia

I was also going to suggest a capsule design but you requested it resemble a modern day sport bike so that would be far from that. However it would probably yield better results and also greater safety for the rider.

As for your HP concerns. I believe the naturally Aspirated record at the Texas Mile for a production fairing bike is 203. So if you're looking for speed (around 250mph) well over the distance of a mile you wont need a prostock engine to do so
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
Last time I checked NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle uses chain drive and make close to 400 HP Naturally Aspirated. In addition that chain drive in this application sees a higher stress than your application. Drag racing is simply about acceleration (in a nut shell) so they reach over 200MPH in 6.5 seconds.

"................" So if you're looking for speed (around 250mph) well over the distance of a mile you wont need a prostock engine to do so
COOL - I'll check these out. Is that a 520 chain?

This is the kind of that gives me a bonner. (FYI - bonner is the same sensation as a w/o the loss of blood to the brain that typically gets guys in trouble with a normal .)
I agree with a capulated shell - but it looks stoopit as 773H. LOL
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:52 AM   #23
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As far a what type of chain, I have no idea. If I had to put money on it I would bet it's not something off the shelf.

I don't think you would need something that stout in order to sustain speed and accelerate gradually.

I would try and find specs on Bonneville competitors as they would be the closest resemblance to your goal. IMO.
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:25 AM   #24
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Even at sustain speed you will be putting max hp through the chain. This will keep the chain under tension and still put a lot of stress on the chain.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Using CREO 2.0. Been on the PTC products since 93 and taught Pro-e up nort eh. I don't see a single advantage that CREO has over version 18 back in the late 90's and the earlier versions where of 773H of a lot more straight forward. Now everything is just re-arranged and more of a pain in the to get done what you want. thney trrew out their most important buzz word - "robust". We have hundreds of people making things look nice on the screen but the model is pure . It is WAY off the mark as far as intuitive user interface applications.

And if you've been using CREO - PLEASE tell me how to "SKETCH A DATUM CURVE". Not create a sketch or create points and pout a curve through them - - I want to know how to do exactly what I said and you could do it in all other versions before CREO. "SKETCH A DATUM CURVE"

On the other side - if you're interested in modeling up some parts for this - JOIN IN ! ! !
I wish I could jump in. I just used to sell PTC products, not use them. I used to sit in on training classes every now and then to mess around with the product. I do know a guy that can help you with any questions, just PM me your info and I can pass it on to him.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Even at sustain speed you will be putting max hp through the chain. This will keep the chain under tension and still put a lot of stress on the chain.
I agree there will still be a great deal of stress placed on the drivetrain but I would think the force on the chain would be less at top speed maintaining speed or gaining a few MPH over the duration of a minute as opposed to the force seen going from 0-70 in first gear in a few seconds.

The point I was trying to make is that the lightest combination drivetrain should be used but to consider that the acceleration force should be significantly less than the forces seen at the top end. I would figure to get a non capsulated bike over 250mph would require very tall gearing reducing the forces seen on acceleration to the chain.

This is all data I don't know. It would be at this point I would call manufactures and explain the application and take their recommendation. If they shrug their shoulders then it's back to trial and error and trying to calculate ball park figures.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:11 PM   #27
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If all you're interested in is top speed not acceleration then weight doesn't matter much. Weight has little effect on top speed.
It's all about power and aerodynamics.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:49 PM   #28
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I have thought about the math but in my head I see the force put on the chain will be dependant on the horsepower/tq of the motor. So if the gearing is designed properly the drag limited speed will meet up with the engine being at peak hp. So while you're at 250mph for extended periods of time you will have all the horsepower being transferred through the chain.

I can see that it's either way but haven't heard a good explanation of why acceleration would be worse.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee View Post
If all you're interested in is top speed not acceleration then weight doesn't matter much. Weight has little effect on top speed.
It's all about power and aerodynamics.
I think there has to be some fairly high degree of "fun factor" in acceleration. Should the front wheel come off the ground? For me, yes, but it's not in my goals to stunt whoolies for 20 miles at 150 either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
I agree there will still be a great deal of stress placed on the drivetrain but I would think the force on the chain would be less at top speed maintaining speed or gaining a few MPH over the duration of a minute as opposed to the force seen going from 0-70 in first gear in a few seconds.

The point I was trying to make is that the lightest combination drivetrain should be used but to consider that the acceleration force should be significantly less than the forces seen at the top end. I would figure to get a non capsulated bike over 250mph would require very tall gearing reducing the forces seen on acceleration to the chain. My question is - With a significant amount of hp required to reach 250mph, does this want to twist the rear wheel to one side? Considering all of the force is on the top of the sprocket and cantilevered a few inches outside of the tire wall. I know drag bikes really rip some torque, but I have no idea what it does to the bearings or drive components.

This is all data I don't know. It would be at this point I would call manufactures and explain the application and take their recommendation. If they shrug their shoulders then it's back to trial and error and trying to calculate ball park figures.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:22 PM   #30
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
I have thought about the math but in my head I see the force put on the chain will be dependant on the horsepower/tq of the motor. So if the gearing is designed properly the drag limited speed will meet up with the engine being at peak hp. So while you're at 250mph for extended periods of time you will have all the horsepower being transferred through the chain.

I can see that it's either way but haven't heard a good explanation of why acceleration would be worse.
I think the difference would be in the rate of acceleration. I would bet that the majority of chain failures would occur on a hard launch as opposed to under steady acceleration.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:49 PM   #32
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It would break on a launch because it gets shocked loaded and all the engines power and torque is applied at once. Most chain failures I've seen is from misalignment.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:52 PM   #33
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Quote:
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I think the difference would be in the rate of acceleration. I would bet that the majority of chain failures would occur on a hard launch as opposed to under steady acceleration.
Quote:
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It would break on a launch because it gets shocked loaded and all the engines power and torque is applied at once. Most chain failures I've seen is from misalignment.
Don't most track racing chain failures occur accelerating out of a right corner?
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:58 PM   #34
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Not sure, only ones I've seen then there was an alignment problem. Also on the track you are never at max speed for miles on end. You are either braking or accelerating, since there is very little stress on the chain under braking the only stress it would be under is during acceleration.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
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If all you're interested in is top speed not acceleration then weight doesn't matter much. Weight has little effect on top speed.
It's all about power and aerodynamics.
Rotational weight and static weight are two different things.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkansasDave View Post
I have thought about the math but in my head I see the force put on the chain will be dependant on the horsepower/tq of the motor. So if the gearing is designed properly the drag limited speed will meet up with the engine being at peak hp. So while you're at 250mph for extended periods of time you will have all the horsepower being transferred through the chain.

I can see that it's either way but haven't heard a good explanation of why acceleration would be worse.
Again I agree to some extent. But if your logic was completely accurate then in 6th gear on a liter bike at 2000 rpms for example, if your twisted the throttle wide open instantly the front wheel would yank of the ground just as easily and as quickly as if you did the same thing in first gear. My bet is in 6th gear that front wheel would not budge.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:28 AM   #37
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what software are you using to mock up and prototype? i've been designing custom cruiser frames in sketchup but i also have access to drafting, vector, and rendering software
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:50 AM   #38
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Just starting the front suspension. No bracket attachments for the front caliper yet, but it's based the Olins FGRT811 43mm for S1000RR. Except it's a 45mm tube. Just don't look at the rubber. It's just graphics.

I'd like to have a rim mounted single rotor for the front brake and I like the idea of a 4 piston caliper. Just don't know how to mount it yet. I've seen calipers mounted on swingarms in the rear of custom bikes. Other than looks, the greatest advantage is the moment arm being so long.

Ideas???


MHVB001 zpsdec3059d

Wheel base is currently at 2000mm. A bit long. The 2015 R1 is 1420mm
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:40 AM   #39
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Quote:
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what software are you using to mock up and prototype? i've been designing custom cruiser frames in sketchup but i also have access to drafting, vector, and rendering software
PTC CREO2
I can convert almost any 3D file type so if anyone feels like designing anything - - - grab a bat and step up to the plate. PM me and we can discuss how to transfer files.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:35 AM   #40
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If it's just fantasy, as previously stated, I'd want something like this for the suspension/steering setup:
ELF Honda 3033 Ottoneroblogspot2B2528052529
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