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Old 10-17-2014, 01:04 PM   #181
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No worries. I took your post as something that was intended directly for me. So I was trying to picture it in my head

But we were getting at the same Idea
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:08 PM   #182
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Quote:
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The passer stated an inside pass wouldn't be safe. This is incorrect. An inside pass would be the SAFEST as IF he spooked the passee, the higher probability is that a spooked rider rolls off and/stands the bike up and moves to the OUTSIDE (or right in this case) of the turn.
I would like to see the video. I wonder where he was when coming out of turn 11 and how quickly he closed the door on an outside pass.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:13 PM   #183
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I would like to see the video. I wonder where he was when coming out of turn 11 and how quickly he closed the door on an outside pass.
Josh stated he was to the right of the track. Paul said there was 8 foot of room on the outside. Only an idiot would pass on the outside at speed when a rider waved him past AND was on the right side while going into a LEFT turn. The track doesn't magically make more tarmac on that outside path, it starts to shrink as the track goes left if Josh stays right (correctly so). TWS (Texas World Speedway) is wide. Paul had 4X (minimum) the room on the inside and yet chose to go to the outside. HUGE error in his own judgement, yet he sues the guy doing the right thing to get out of his way.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:21 PM   #184
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So, this level 3 "most experienced rider" was not experienced enough to avoid a slower rider?

Seems legit.

Smh.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:22 PM   #185
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In person, josh told me that he looked behind him lost his line, wasnt sure what was going on a bit intimidated that people were passing him so closely.

Pawel told me that josh weaved in front of em

Cody said that pawel couldn't have avoided it and that even if he was in his spot he would have been taken out too
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:37 PM   #186
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I have been taken out in a similar fashion where a guy thought he could get by on the outside on turn exit. Fortunately neither one of us was hurt. It blew me away when he started blaming me for the incident, thinking that I could see him and should not have come out so far.


This whole situation could have been avoided by not attempting a pass on the outside of a turn on a rider that was demonstrating a level of inexperience and erratic behavior.

The comment had been made that passing on the outside of a turn is safer than passing on the inside. That is rarely the case, especially at a track day when it is not at all uncommon to encounter riders swinging unnecessarily wide on corner exists. Not to mention coming up on someone on their blind side.




This lawsuit situation is going viral. A lot of people are watching how this pans out. It is good to see that the suing party is dropping the suit. I can only hope his attorney does so as well and simply write off the time and effort they've put into this to date.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:40 PM   #187
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Who was the guy that took you out?
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:44 PM   #188
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Who was the guy that took you out?

Don't remember. It was years ago. I think he only raced one more season after that incident.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:45 PM   #189
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Quote:
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http://extrememotorsportstrackdays.com/legal.htmlNote that everyone at the track is waived from liability except any rider. Wouldn't surprise me if they started requiring liability insurance
Agree. Signing the typical waiver doesn't mean a rider can't sue another rider. I'm surprised that no one has brought a lawsuit previously based on a few really dumbass moves we see every once in a while.

I, for one, definitely don't like the idea of any rider suing another rider based on a track incident unless there was clear intent to hurt or kill someone. But unless a law is in place, I believe riders will continue to have this type of exposure.

I'm guessing the claim against Mr. Hurst is based on negligence. I wish him the best in defending his case. This is either going to cause fewer to ride at the track (sad) and/or put some riders on high alert.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:50 PM   #190
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I was riding that same session.......

came up on two riders way below a knowledgeable pace......

backed it the eff down for a couple turns until I could assess it.....

and then looked for an inside pass. I know how much track i need....noobs always need it all

passing outside is like going without a condom.
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Old 10-17-2014, 01:55 PM   #191
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Quote:
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I was riding that same session.......

came up on two riders way below a knowledgeable pace......

backed it the eff down for a couple turns until I could assess it.....

and then looked for an inside pass. I know how much track i need....noobs always need it all

passing outside is like going without a condom.
Thank you for taking a safe pass. Sorry for getting in your way.
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Old 10-17-2014, 02:01 PM   #192
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Old 10-17-2014, 02:25 PM   #193
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I remember attempting an outside pass coming out of T12 at TWS (Texas World Speedway). Rider in front was so slow, never dreamed he'd track out as far as he did. Wound up going off track rather than make contact with him. After all, I was the passer & it was my responsibility to make the pass cleanly.

Didn't go down, though!
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Old 10-17-2014, 02:35 PM   #194
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Thank you for taking a safe pass. Sorry for getting in your way.
Thats just how its done or supposed to be.......

because I wad undoubtedly in someone elses way.

Think about this....back when I started there were no track days. CMRA license was like 3 sessions on the morning of an endurance race. Then you got thrown into full on race practice. Steep learning curve for sure.

Lvl 3 is etiquette as much as speed. he didnt have it
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:09 PM   #195
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If anyone it liable for the accident it seems the organizers would be for letting several marked level 2 riders out on the track during a level 3 session.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:13 PM   #196
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Quote:
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If anyone it liable for the accident it seems the organizers would be for letting several marked level 2 riders out on the track during a level 3 session.
agreed. And letting them do it in 2 different sessions.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:17 PM   #197
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Quote:
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If anyone is liable for the accident it seems the organizers would be for letting several marked level 2 riders out on the track during a level 3 session.
typo edit
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:35 PM   #198
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If anyone it liable for the accident it seems the organizers would be for letting several marked level 2 riders out on the track during a level 3 session.
Disagree. The rider still had control of the bike and could have chosen to slow and pass elsewhere, or not at all.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:51 PM   #199
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Disagree. The rider still had control of the bike and could have chosen to slow and pass elsewhere, or not at all.
I think the organizers share some of the responsibility. They collected money for this event so that puts them in a higher level of care and control. Riders are paying for it to be organized properly even if it's not a school and they don't provide instruction. I'm looking at this from a legal standpoint, not from a common practices for a track day standpoint.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:56 PM   #200
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Since I'm the only eye witness that saw the whole thing unfold, I'll go ahead and throw my .02 in...complete with pictures! ...well, A picture

I was close enough to get Pawel's fork oil all over myself and my bike, so I have a pretty good idea of what happened, unfortunately, I don't run video before lunch so I didn't have it recorded.

Anyway, neither myself nor Pawel saw Josh wave us by. We knew he was going slow, so we planned on going on the outside. Contrary to what Tojo is saying, the safer pass was the outside. I'm not sure why you would want to go on the inside of a person turning before the apex, maybe he's just not understanding (hence the picture). Also, a person I'm sure he's familiar with, Steve McNamara routinely says in his riders meeting, "if you're exiting the track, put your hand up and stay on the inside." So again, going towards the inside is not the smartest decision here. If you have the speed difference, going to the outside where the rider is driving AWAY from you is the safer pass.

The attached picture:
Green: What we both thought Josh would do
Yellow: What Josh actually did
Red: Pawel's predicted line
Red X: Pawel's predicted place of passing, several feet outside of Josh's predicted line
Blue dot: place of contact
Pink: Tojo's suggested line
Black dot: what would have happened if Josh had stayed on the line or stayed inside if he was pitting in and Pawel took the inside line

So, you can say what you want on what should've happened, but IMO, Josh made a mistake and veered right, which neither of us saw coming (unpredictable).

Do I think Josh should be sued for it? No. I've made mistakes too, just lucky that it didn't cause an accident.

Do I think extreme should be sued for it? Well, I think they were very ill-prepared to run a track day. A certain degree of safety is expected at any track day. You expect that track marshals are looking at stickers and you expect that corner workers have been briefed to know what to look for. I don't think either of those things happened and was the main contributor to this event. I don't think it's a coincidence that this isn't a common practice (suing over track days). I think most of the programs are safety oriented and have enough common sense to know that this is dangerous, and mitigate those risks by making sure basic things are taken care of, like making sure the right people are in the right level. But those are just my thoughts.
-Cody
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