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Old 10-23-2014, 02:19 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jae View Post
Then what's the difference? As you point out, the idiots who need it most aren't going to take the class OR get their endorsement anyway, and the responsible people are likely to take the class anyway. Then there are those poor idiots who decide to get legal but have no training... perhaps they DO learn something, such as not needing a 'busa for their first bike after dropping a Ninja 3 times in class.

But then again, I think driver's ed should be manditory before getting a "C" license as well... and perhaps going as far as requiring a re-test every 10 years or so, especially if you're A) Asian, B) female, C) over 60, D) can't see over your own dashboard, or E) All of the above.

Yeah, the class doesn't teach you ALL you need to know, but perhaps it will help some of the idiots realize just how much they DON'T know.

So, now that they've been collecting money in the form of licensing fees to support new rider education, how about they actually use that money to subsidize the program they made mandatory... which if I remember far enough back is where this started to begin with.

I've said this from the beginning. Make it free or a chance to opt out. To answer you question, the difference it that there isn't a option for any of that. Making it mandatory is not only a money grab it's also another tax that's not even used to benefit the community.
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:39 PM   #102
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So training classes for motorcycling is a bad idea, I c

Self taught is best right?
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:44 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X View Post
So training classes for motorcycling is a bad idea, I c

Self taught is best right?
not a bad idea at all....but, mandatory? You do realize that one can obtain a license to operate a 3,000+ lb piece of steel without the need of a mandatory paid out of pocket class, correct?

self taught (this term should be used lightly, I spent a month riding with a licensed rider while I held a paper permit that restricted me from night riding or riding without a licensed rider (minimum 1 yr)) hasn't landed me in an ER or a morgue to date.
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Old 10-23-2014, 02:47 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACER X View Post
So training classes for motorcycling is a bad idea, I c

Self taught is best right?
No, it's always a good idea.
I think the point they are making is that you are forced to take the class by your state government. It's yet another thing the government is doing to control the behavior and decisions of adults.
Kind of like texting and driving laws. Yeah you shouldn't text and drive, but is it the governments place to force you not to?

Personally I enjoyed the class and I think just about everyone will learn SOMETHING in the class.

I was kind of that I was being forced to "waste" two days of my time and 200 bucks, but once it was over with, I was glad I took the class.

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Old 10-23-2014, 02:57 PM   #105
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No, it's always a good idea.
I think the point they are making is that you are forced to take the class by your state government. It's yet another thing the government is doing to control the behavior and decisions of adults.
Kind of like texting and driving laws. Yeah you shouldn't text and drive, but is it the governments place to force you not to?
A classic function of a government is to build roads. Roads help everyone so everyone needs to pitch in when building them. Ensuring these public institutions are safe is definitely the governments responsibility. For all the talk of firearms, motor vehicle traffic deaths are three times the number of firearm homicides. These are 33,000 people a year killed by licensed users of your institution.

You can text and driver all you want on your own private land. On public land you have to follow the rules we have all agreed to.
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:24 PM   #106
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Actually according to current law, I can text and drive all I want on Houston roads with no penalty, as long as I don't get into an accident because of it. So what does that tell you?

Sure it's their responsibility to ensure the roads are safe, but when that responsibility cuts into my personal rights as an adult american, I have a problem with that. I'm all for safety, but at what point have they gone too far and at what point could they use safety as an excuse to strip you of your rights?
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:32 PM   #107
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Actually according to current law, I can text and drive all I want on Houston roads with no penalty, as long as I don't get into an accident because of it. So what does that tell you?
It tells me the laws have not kept up with changing technology and culture. What does it tell you?

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Originally Posted by Shelnutt View Post
Sure it's their responsibility to ensure the roads are safe, but when that responsibility cuts into my personal rights as an adult american, I have a problem with that. I'm all for safety, but at what point have they gone too far and at what point could they use safety as an excuse to strip you of your rights?
Why do you think you have a fundamental right to use public infrastructure? If they made driving tests much more harsh and frequent to eliminate the bottom 5% of drivers it would be perfectly legal. It would also probably eliminate 30% of fatal accidents.
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:43 PM   #108
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So are we safer since MSF was implemented? Are noobs not going to be noobs after the two day class? See the problem here?
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Old 10-23-2014, 03:48 PM   #109
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It tells me the laws have not kept up with changing technology and culture. What does it tell you?
It tells me our local government obviously has decided for whatever reason that it is not currently their responsibility.
It's not a new concept. Plenty of other cities have made it illegal. Why hasn't Houston?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreyFan View Post
Why do you think you have a fundamental right to use public infrastructure? If they made driving tests much more harsh and frequent to eliminate the bottom 5% of drivers it would be perfectly legal. It would also probably eliminate 30% of fatal accidents.
I don't feel it's a fundamental right. But I feel that during the use of my driving privileges, If I feel it is safe to look down at my phone at a given time, I should be able to do so without persecution.
IF I cause an accident while looking at my phone due to my lack of judgement, at that point I feel like I should be charged with a much more serious crime.
You apparently feel that a majority needs to suffer and not be able to use their phones AT ALL, even if you are sitting at a light... because a small group of people don't have enough sense to look at the road while the car is moving?

I think we just need much harsher punishment for the idiots who are the ones causing accidents.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:44 PM   #110
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Quote:
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I don't feel it's a fundamental right. But I feel that during the use of my driving privileges, If I feel it is safe to look down at my phone at a given time, I should be able to do so without persecution.
So you support laws that strongly punish someone only after they have had an accident using a phone? That is flawed because it isn't a real deterrent. If people thought a phone would lead to an accident the accident is a greater deterrent than any punishment.
Quote:
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IF I cause an accident while looking at my phone due to my lack of judgement, at that point I feel like I should be charged with a much more serious crime.
You apparently feel that a majority needs to suffer and not be able to use their phones AT ALL, even if you are sitting at a light... because a small group of people don't have enough sense to look at the road while the car is moving?

I think we just need much harsher punishment for the idiots who are the ones causing accidents.
You have a few ways to stop people from doing foolish things that endanger and kill the public. Regulation and prosecution. Laws and prosecution are a deterrent but you can also just prevent people to get on the road without a standard level of instruction and testing their ability. DWI laws can't really get an harsher and people still drive drunk.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:52 PM   #111
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So are we safer since MSF was implemented? Are noobs not going to be noobs after the two day class? See the problem here?
Ahem! Oh MoreyFan ^^^^^^^
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:54 PM   #112
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Ahem! Oh MoreyFan ^^^^^^^
Yes class is an acceptable substitution for course. And either is better than coarse. Thanks for that.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:25 PM   #113
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Yes class is an acceptable substitution for course. And either is better than coarse. Thanks for that.
Your theory fell apart didn't it?
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:32 PM   #114
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Your theory fell apart didn't it?
What theory? I can't answer your question because I don't have the relevant information and I have never taken MSF.

I know that better drivers are less likely to kill themselves and others. Instruction and testing creates better drivers and prevents drivers without needed skills from getting a license. Unless you disagree with that.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:42 PM   #115
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Yeah? You didn't take the MSF, but thinks it's beneficial and not a money grab? Like I've said a million times. I'm not saying take testing away. I'm saying add the old system back and make the course an option. How did you obtain your M endorsement?
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:43 PM   #116
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so, who is this cog fellow...comes on and the first post is dealing with funding, and is all about safety... what is he actually suggesting....and what does he get out of it...
4 total posts and all in this thread...
Steady there old timer, I think you might actually like this guy if you met him. I've met you and know Dinosuar and I'm actually good from the experience.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:46 PM   #117
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Yeah? You didn't take the MSF, but thinks it's beneficial and not a money grab? Like I've said a million times. I'm not saying take testing away. I'm saying add the old system back and make the course an option. How did you obtain your M endorsement?
I think instruction is beneficial, you are not really arguing for better instruction you are saying take away all mandatory instruction. That doesn't fit with an argument that MSF is ineffective. Do you think instruction is effective in creating better/safer riders?

I got my M by riding to the DPS with a friend in a car following me and taking a test.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:47 PM   #118
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If that's the case make it free. If I can pass the test on my own I shouldn't have to take the 2 day course. Make it voluntary even but make it an option.
I believe that is part of the purpose for this thread. If you incur a ticket while riding-I think you'll be taking a riding course for the dismissal, or contacting Wackjum.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:48 PM   #119
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That is flawed because it isn't a real deterrent. If people thought a phone would lead to an accident the accident is a greater deterrent than any punishment.
True but no amount of classes or education is going to make someone care. When I took the class, there were so many idiots in there it was unreal. The class is super easy and the test is even easier.
I feel like I got something out of the class, because I WANTED to learn how to be safe as possible. One of the kids in there just wanted to skim through the class to hurry and get the license his dad was making him get, so he could go back to stunting on 610 with his 929.

Most of his questions consisted of "what can they really charge you with for doing wheelies on 610" ect...

You think a class is better for someone like that, or more severe punishment for doing stupid is?

Point is people who want to take the class and be safe will do so and get something out of it.
People who are forced to take the class are going to skim through it and its not going to make any real difference whether they were forced to sit in class or not.
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Old 10-23-2014, 05:50 PM   #120
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Why should taking the basic motorcycle class be any different than taking drivers education-which is required, and teaches the same basic safety principles?
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